Drums-live room, Boppers help!

[87PRS]

guys, I've got a small 16X20 drum room with 8 a foot ceiling, at the present its got some aurelex around the side walls, one side has 40X40" window, and on the ceiling I have like 6 pieces of aurelex in an arch, kinda cymbol shape. What I was wondering before going to the trouble of dampning the ceiling "more" is would it help to have more absortion on the ceiling in a small room like this. I know, I know try it out, experiment, but I've got a bad back and this is a major feat for me on a ladder....any comments? Here's a pic, since this pic I put in a wooded floor....crap, doesn't really show ceiling...I'll get another pic soon.

[Bops2000]

How many mikes you runnin on the kit ?
Overheads can be your best friend or worst enemy...
sounds to me you have enough absorption.
my room is only 17 by 13, wood floor 1 wall difused, wood floor, popcorn ceiling half 8' half 12 feet high. But I don't really use the room as it is kinda "floppy" sounding, so I close mike what I can and set up input eq by trial and error (just to get harmonic ring outt of room, not a lot of 'dialing'). Dumb idea, thats why I would try it, is run four eye hooks in ceiling in a square over kit, then cut a moving blanket to size and via coathanger wire hang the blanket 1' below ceiling, that may be too much, but at least it's not permanent. carpet under the kit is a must.
Or you can just gate 'em all at input, doesn't seem as punchy if you try running gate in the daw afterwards, not a big fan of that anyhoot, but a lot of folks do it.

[itsplayed]

Hey 87', you consider a 16x20 drum booth, small? How 'small' is the rest of the studio?

[Bops2000]

Vulcan DC also had some good points way back, that is to dial in the overheads first. They could be up to 75% of your ambient mix, albeit realisim and depth to the kit. Add a 'room mike' for some more air also to your 75% mix. (looks like you got enough mikes). You don't want that 70's box sound, I presume. Then dial in the close mikes, once done, record the settings via pen and paper, or take a pix of the board for a start point for future.
At mixing, or at recording some ideas:
For a rough idea, look at dropping eq around 50Hz on snare, also: bands around 300-700 Hz to clarify definition of whole kit, 2-3k boost hats, overheads,(old analog trick when layering tracks), I call it 2k boost from old boards, and around 8k for 'air'. It's a bit of work, and humidity, tuning, player, you know the drill all are variables. I still haven't got my kit to where I want it.
But once you get close, you should be ok to get a nice layered kit.
Compression around 2:1 if needed.

[Bops2000]

I use sonar
but my input ADA converters are adjusted to the
analog board, so I have the board outputs close to unity gain, (flat signal into daw). (see pix)
Also I run 16 tracks direct in, usually 8 for drums alone, that may be an issue for you. Without that capability, you are stuck with mixing on the fly with analog board to four? track output. best to run subs on analog.
I have dicked around for quite some time and realized I needed at least 8 tracks for drums simultaneously, thats why i run the Mackie 24/8.
OK -i ADDED A DRUM TRACK ON MYSPACE, NO EFFECTS, NUTTIN -THIS WAS RECORDED TO 2 TRACK FROM BOARD TO DAW,(8 in 2 out), I ain't proud of it but it tis what it is, (snare is light on purpose for tight rimshot ring) I call this sonata "Sm Rm Drums"

[Bops2000]

I added the same kit mix to the rest of the tracks, again no effects on the kit yet.
see "smr add tracks" on my space.
Emai me bro
for the new guys:
Folks need to know what it is, songwise before you start mesin with the kit track, and how to attack it, drums samples ain't no fix on acid or anywheres else: they are the real deal, like the rest of the band, or artist, players, - if you don't play, then don'y play the game, if you want to play, then be humble and ask. There are reasons why music does what it does one reason why it don't do what it does, is lack of understanding, beleive it or not, everybody sees it.

[87PRS]

itsplayed...sorry guys, oldsheimers settin' in.. drum room is 12X16...my live room is 20X16, hence 16X32 building. Ol' age is a gift....don't open it hehe

Boppers, yes, I have tried most of the deals on the drums, what I usually do is run straight through Ghost 24LE, I can do 24 tracks at once (never had a band that uses more than 14), and usually run 8 mics to kit, have tried a extra room mic for ambience but it doesn't do much in sound for this size room. And this may be a problem with overheads, I'm using 2 SP C4's they sound good, but dang I can't even break out the omni caps.

Tried, no eq and sounds okay, tried eq'ing off Ghost and this sounds better, usually wit the RNC on bass drum and snare at 2:1 as you stated. I have gated the drums (analog), yegaads that sux I spent alot of time on this still don't like the sound I guess it sounds too processed or somethin'...what I do with bands is straight mics through Ghost to HD24XR for capture then dump to AA for mix/edit etc. I always mix drums first, with rock I like the drums right up front in the mix.

I appreciate the track on myspace, but I am on dial up, snare clik....wait...bass drum hit....wait...oh yeah there's a bass guitar....wait haha de-rives me nuts, I cant stand the anticipation.

I'll try some of the eq'ing tech, the 300-700 is pretty much norm mids I owe alot to dc our bud in india on this one he helped me some time ago via da mail.

On the snare I usually get a good hit at 1K in mix, and add some bottom. bass drum 65-80Hz and 14K attack hit, usually mess around with eq in mix for results pending on the band.

I have and do run the OH's, mixed first man I can't believe all the articles I have read on this technique and using the 3 mic approach and it does work and sounds good on many apps, and as stated I mix in the rest, usually snare/bass drum then go back, clean up tom tracks (noise inbetween) and mix in hh's and start all over configuring Fx's, s/w comps etcetc which also change the EQ's volumes blahblah man...it gets tough haha, do you think a small room sounds better livelier, than a small room deadened? Humm, maybe we are just stuck with the rooms we are in regardless, ya can't make a purse outta a hogs ear (but ya can ride a hawg haha), bops go to my website, on CD called "3" at bottom (only song) check out drums on it. thanks

new guys, if you plan on recording bands with drummers, plan on spending alot of time learning the process, its fun, but takes time to grasp the elements. You're never to old to learn and your never too young to be the best.

[Bops2000]

I think your kit sounds kinda neat. What i am noticing is the crashes, do not have the same definition as the ride, the ride sounds good. I wouldn't use slapback on the kick with the reverb goin on, Bass drum aint bad when its in the mix, probably dry it out at intro, then bring back the effects.
The big thing is the snare and toms don't have that stick hittin the head sound, but that ia a matter of taste, I guess. I'd say bring the snare, toms, and crashes up in volume and thin them out a little more.
as far as small rooms, i dont really dampen anything, all my drums are wide open double heads even kick, i run powerstroke on top, ambassadors on bottom, generic 18" Bass drum, it just 'Pops" better. And I mike kick from rear.
Thats my take. Over all, your kit sounds kind of deep purply, not a bad sound at all for that tune.

[87PRS]

I really appreciate your comments and suggestios,,,weird thing is the drummers heads on that particular record were like 5 years old and beaten to deathm know aht I mean? and....the drums are all double headed and no muffs, with one of those ring system jobbies on the bass drum. Problem I have with the drums or drummer is backing off of playing so much in recording, "dynamics" which work well live but seem to drop out in studio work. I have other songs he recorded and I have actually gone in and bumped (seperate) parts in mix up +3db to keep a consistent level in mix...ie snare and bass drum. I do not like the crash sound I get seems a little too airey, I did a remix and backed of the verb, it sounds better, and with some leveling on the individual drums they came up in the mix better...man, its almost like sitting there with your finger on a volume getting a lead vocalist to "sit" in the mix... I made this small 16"X24" panel, (absorbent) and mounted it on a stand, put it at the left of HH's, got a better response what with the glass window directly to the left. LOL the bass drum is dry, all the way through mix. I'm thinkin' his heads were to dead to get any stick response sounds. The drummer is a big Zep fan, ol' dude hair down to his belt, ya know...I may bring in another drummer just for an A/B on the track(s)...thanks Boppers appreciate your time.

[Bops2000]

Funny you should say that, as I have an actual Mattress, and a moving blanket on the left side of the kit also hiding a small closet.
Could be an Omen...

[87PRS]

so....what is the boppers hiding in the small closet, inverted green foilage?

[87PRS]

again I re-mixed the track (not posted) and worked on the drums, muted everything again, started over drums first, added bass guitar, etc and I think I have the sound I was looking for still have to run it by my better half for a play in the van...actually got a better string sound on the bass this time around, more ro-to if you know what I mean...also tried sumthin' diff on the snare, doubled the track up, put verb on one and push another up center of it around 300 dry both 180'd hard R & L, also tried a delay on 2nd dry snare to effect stereo image of hard pans, didn't keep it but was different.

[87PRS]

Here's some pics of my studio, plus a shot of the Hammond XK set up, ejoy!
Studio Mix Area

The Rack

Keys Tiered

Looking from Drum Room

The Ghost

and an old band photo from the 70's, me in front middle

[Bops2000]

Your the only one smilin dude...

[87PRS]

Boppers, ya wake up on the wrong side?...seems to be that way doesn't it...evidently my studio ain't worth a talk, but I like it, so I'll keep on smilin'...