ANY KEYBOARD PLAYERS?

[diminished]

I need a keyboard for arrangement for the studio and i need your reccomendations.i have been digging for some models,but i am not a key player.i need it for complete arrangement.strings,pads,brass,orchestral,percussi on etc.etc.i know i might not have what i want all in one,but nonetheless,need your advice and reccomendation anyways.lets keep sound quality in mind,its important.the budjet is around $2000 more or less.and for a complete digital studio that already exists.
thanks.

[Arranger]

I think I can help. Last summer I went through the whole drove of modern keys and came to the conclusion that the Yamaha sound engines are the most natural and versitile for the majority of my needs.

I like analog sounds. Many of Yamaha's are sampled and there are hundreds to choose from in any of their new models.

If you want the keys for complete arrangements, the Motif allows multitracking. If you will just record the voices, the S80 or S90 will give you the sounds without the sequencing and onboard recording abilities.

I play rock, country, blues, jazz, fusion, classical, and a little neo-psyche. I like instruments that sound real, like an orchestra. The Motif is incredible. The Triton series by Korg is also well-respected but regarded as more synthetic and better suited for trance, dance, house stuff. Under no circumstances, though, does that mean that a Motif can't handle the modern synth arena.

Go to: http://www.motifator.com/forums/index.php?Cat=1,2,4
to talk to Yamie afficionados and learn what's possible.

I got my Motif 7 for $1799. Most places wanted $2199. Shop around and you'll get keys for well under $2000.

Have fun. Go to a good shop where the good players are. Turn you back to the keys while a salesman demos them for you. Use your ears, not your eyes.

I play a ton of keyboard, but hunt and peck styles can get a great deal out of a modern workstation.

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Arranger (edited 12-08-2002).]

[brzilian]

There are pleanty brands to choose from (Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Kurzweil)

While the Motif is a good board, its kind of silly to go for a full blown workstation when as you say you already have a competent studio setup based around your computer.

An even cheaper and more versatile route would be to pick up an inexpensive MIDI controler from Fatar, Studio Logic or others and then buy synth modules.

I am personally very happy with my Roland XP30. It its an all around workhorse synth with over 1,400 sounds onboard. You can further expand it will 2 additional SR-JV epansion boards. It looks like its replacement will be coming out this year as well.

[This message has been edited by brzilian (edited 12-08-2002).]

[Strings2k2]

Just to add to Brzilian's last post: in terms of MIDI controllers, I purchased an E-volution MK-361 earlier this year and it works great. Not 88 keys, but still 61, and full-size. Five octaves seems to do it for me. Have a look around at the various online vendors, they're usually well-priced. One thing I will recommend though is that I wish I had gotten the one that also had the additional 16 programmable rotary controller knobs on it, which I believe E-volution calls the MK-361C. Check 'em out at www.evolution.co.uk. (http://www.evolution.co.uk.) Hope this helps.

[diminished]

thanks a lot guys for the info.i am ready to purchase,if any additional info,please shoot it my way.i am looking for the key for arrangements in the studio and not intrested to mutitrack on the keyboard primarily since the studio is fully equiped wit digital daw and with gear etc.i defanately need a physical keyboard with quality sounds and ofcourse could add modules too in the future as needed.but if the keyboard is equiped with some quality sounds to start with,than why not since we can add modules when needed as you go.
any other info,will be appriciated.another thing came to mind.what if the keyboard is needed outside the studio for arrangement for exaple?wouldnt it be good to have the multitrack sequencer on board?or is there another or better way to go about this?
thanks for any advice in advance.

[diminished]

ARRANGER where did you get your motif7 for that price?any sites to consider?most ive seen are around$2199.

[Robert D]

Hey Diminished - Have you ever looked into Gigastudio? It was the first, and still is the best software sampler. I think with a couple grand you could buy a good keyboard, and still have the money left to buy Gigastudio and a couple of instrument sets. There's just no way a hardware sampler, let alone a keyboard/synth can match the realism of Gigastudio and the awesome libraries that are available for it. I work with real strings, but I've done some arrangements with Gigasampler, and you can't tell which is which. I use it for piano and drums also.
There are lots of samples to listen to over at the gigastudio website. Check it out.
RD

[Arranger]

So far, I got $1999 at www.americanmusical.com (http://www.americanmusical.com)

It's a start. Then you go back and forth with the retailers wittling it down. I'm going to write in to Motifator.com for you.

Let me know how you make out. I'm sure you can do $1899.

By the way, if you want just the sounds and a hammer action, get the S90. I like softsynths, too. But it is nice to be able to carry the instrument out from time to time.

Good luck.

[diminished]

yes ROBERT i agree,my friend does use gigasamplers for his arrangements.and yes good idea to have the controler with giga sounds.i am concidering that too and the portability of it too.either way you could have the use for different envirement i guess.anyhow i like the feel of the phiyical instruments in most cases but ofcourse the addition of the sounds goes with it too.thanks for the info guys.must make a decision soon.

[Arranger]

diminished (like that username, by the way), call Randy at www.8thstreet.com (http://www.8thstreet.com)

I hear he'll do a Motif7 (76 key) for $1700. I hope I'm right.

[knowdoubt]

Whatever you do I would highly recommend getting weighted hammer action. To spend $1k+ on a keyboard & not get weighted action would be a real waste IMO (If this is to be your main keyboard) as most of the sounds in the live synths mentioned are still only marginally above mediocre IMO so the keyboard action (& portability for live use) is really the most valuable part of the investment. I've tried just about everything out there in the under $2k range (Everything mentioned so far) & find it frankly rather disappointing & a rip off that they aren't better than they are (Really good piano sound being the hardest thing to find) considering how long the manufacturers have been at this & the technology that's available to them these days. The E-mu proteus rackmount modules are very intense with features & ways to manipulate the samples with filters & modulaters for realism but the 32MB sample banks that generally come with them are full of 100's of to short of samples for 100's of different instruments instead of dedicating lots of memory to great samples for just a few instruments. If your a technical wiz you can make your own samples for them though.

[knowdoubt]

One more thing. I'll 2nd the recommendation to do business with www.8thstreet.com (http://www.8thstreet.com) .
Man they have great customer support & return policy. I once bought a pair of mics that I thought I was going to need to exchange. They were quite cooperative & e-mailed me a return authorization voucher with instructions to call or e-mail them back with the tracking number of the item as soon as I shipped it so they could immediately ship the exchange item while the return item was still in transit avoiding me from being without for the extended time of 2 shipping periods. I ended up returning the items directly to the manufacturer for & updated modification but was very impressed with the response & support that 8th Street offered.

I have no other affiliation with them.

[Arranger]

Originally posted by knowdoubt:
Whatever you do I would highly recommend getting weighted hammer action. To spend $1k+ on a keyboard & not get weighted action would be a real waste IMO (If this is to be your main keyboard) as most of the sounds in the live synths mentioned are still only marginally above mediocre IMO so the keyboard action (& portability for live use) is really the most valuable part of the investment. I've tried just about everything out there in the under $2k range (Everything mentioned so far) & find it frankly rather disappointing & a rip off that they aren't better than they are (Really good piano sound being the hardest thing to find) considering how long the manufacturers have been at this & the technology that's available to them these days. The E-mu proteus rackmount modules are very intense with features & ways to manipulate the samples with filters & modulaters for realism but the 32MB sample banks that generally come with them are full of 100's of to short of samples for 100's of different instruments instead of dedicating lots of memory to great samples for just a few instruments. If your a technical wiz you can make your own samples for them though.

I think we're all entitled to our opinions and I don't mind hearing others. It's tough to appreciate global comments regarding the usefulness of any specific modern keyboard. They each have their own useful and useless features.

I have a Steinway grand in my living room. I still find my Motif quite satisfying and useful. It was a lot less expensive. Weighted keys are great for piano and lousy for organ and many synthetics. Weighted action keys are a bear to lug around. I'd rather not spend more to keep a Chiropractor entertained.

My experience may not reflect those of everyone, but I know it does reflect a vast lot of contemporary key players. The Motif7 is well represented on the professional band circuit. And it's a way cool board in my basement.

[knowdoubt]

Arranger;
The point I'm trying to make is, from the looks of diminished's post this is to be his main if not only keyboard - notice the bracketed (If this is to be your main keyboard) in my reply which you quoted. If he plans on getting into piano playing at all he will definitely want weighted action sooner or later (Especially if he has no Steinway Grand of his own to satisfy that desire). Better to have your only keyboard with weighted action than without IMO (of course having both is optimum). I find it easier to tolerate playing organ on weighted action than playing piano on non weighted action but that's just my personal opinion & keyboard is not my main instrument, though it is in the band I've been working with the past 3 years & has been off & on in the past. Often even a cheap outdated non weighted action synth with midi can be picked up for almost nothing to use for a simple non weighted keyboard controller. This is not so for weighted action synth's. They hold much more of their value as keyboard controllers even after their onboard synth has become outdated. I have a few keyboards. One 88 key weighted action & two 61 key non weighted action (Oh.. & a Baldwin spinet http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif ). They are all useful & serve their purpose but if I had to make a choice to get by with only one for all my needs & desires it would be the 88 key weighted action.

Oh.. & I don't see anywhere in my post where I insinuated the Motif or any keyboard wasn't useful. The S90 has weighted action & the same sound bank. Neither of those are the only options for diminished though. I just think he should somehow figure an 88 key weighted action keyboard in that $2k budget he stated & there are several ways to do it. My very good friend who is not a keyboard player per say just went through this & putsed around for several years trying to play piano parts on non weighted action synths. I finally convinced him to pick up a weighted action midi controller & he is in 7th heaven (can't get him away from the thing) & by God he's actually starting to sound a little bit like a real pianist (at times).

[Arranger]

I see your point. I guess if I only had one keyboard, I'd want it to be weighted.

I do like the S90 and it may be light enough to tote around. A lot of Motif8 players moan about the portability. If it will never move from the studio, the Mo8 could be an option.

[Enlightend]

Whatever you get, synth or weighted, make sure you really like how it feels. Mine is synth keys, and after getting used to them I would not be without them. I can play at lightning speeds and without expending as much effort. But the sensitivity of the keys (on mine)is terrible, I can adjust it but even on the softest setting, I am usually playing mezo-forte when what I want is piano or softer! On the highest setting, I barely press the key and it's like BONG(cover ears).

Maybe I would have more control with weighted keys, but as I recall, the Karma has excellent touch-sensitivity, so I'm sure it can be done.

[Arranger]

The Korg Karma and Triton have excellent unweighted keys. They are actually identical to Yamaha's unweighteds. Yamaha manufactures them for Korg.

[GZsound]

I might suggest a different direction. I bought an Alesis QS6 for under $600 and use it as a master controller for my two rack modules. It has some decent sounds and I add rack modules for a lot less than buying another keyboard. I have the QS6 and two EMU units now and all together were less than 2 thousand dollars. For a classic rock band, the Vintage Keys unit is great.

[diminished]

i am just waiting for that push.more if you dont mind guys.too bad i am not a pro key player.but i am ready to get a unit any second now.i dont want to regret my decision later.my main concern is to be equiped with that quality sound for the studio.i guess i should think of the studio mainly now and portability later i guess.
if i went with a controler mainly,what would you guys advice on quality samplers.is emu the way to go?or if any other sudjestions would be most appriciated in this short time frame of mine.
a lot of thanks to all of your inputs,its giving me some ideas.and i hope i hear from you befor i make a final decision.looking forward to hear from you agin if possible,may be the last shot befor a decision making.
thanks again.

[Arranger]

Here's a thought. The sound samples in the Motif are continually being upgraded and created by droves, daily. So the sounds you'll get won't be limited over time. The board comes with some 640 voices right out of the box. You could pick one up from a major retailer and return it if you hate it. I don't know if that's possible with software synths.

I guess you know where my heart lies. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[Robert D]

Diminished - You get to buy too many toys, I'm jealous. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/frown.gif

[knowdoubt]

Well the soft synth/samplers are more upgradeable & aren't inhibited by limited hardware memory constraints, so I would expect them to exceed any hardware synth/sampler quality in the long run (adding memory modules to most hardware synths doesn't always work like you'ld expect & usually just gives you extra dicrete banks of more short samples, not allowing you to span accross modules. correct me if I'm wrong about that). Unfortunately I've not yet upgraded to a fast enough computer to get into the software side yet but some of the productions I've heard by others that have lead me to believe that logic holds up. This is another reason I urge you to really concentrate & dedicate yourself to allocating whatever portion of that $2k budget to a good long term controller or controller/synth. If you do, your satisfaction with it's keyboard controller aspect will likely outlive your satisfaction with the sounds. As I said, I'm not blown away by the sounds in any of the hardware keyboard synth'samplers I've tried, though they are satisfactory & quite usable. It's just that I'm a very critical listener in that respect & can hear (& anticipate) much room for improvement. Actually I'd be interested in hearing more responses & reviews from people with experience with the current crop of both hardware & software solutions.

diminished, how about posting this in the 'Studio Gear' & 'Plugin' forums for hopefully more feedback on the software/hardware aspect. I doubt anyone would scorn you for the multiple posts in a case like this. Hey when a persons about to drop $2k they're entitled to all the feedback they can get. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by knowdoubt (edited 12-12-2002).]

[diminished]

I have posted the same question in the instruments section befor this particular posting.i was surprised there was 0 replies there.i guess there are sections that people dont even bother to explore or else,i can understand that,some sections of the forum even myself i visit very seldomly.
BTW,everyones input is very important to me and i dont shine or bypass any replies and do appriciate them realy.even ROBERT D'S in this case.LOL

[TeleCarlos]

My .0005 cents...

I'm a guitar player mainly... but lately sort of bored with it. My main interest will be recording my own crap for myself and friends, no professional nothing, this is my hobby. Since my ears are not that great, I'm certain I'll be happy with huge amounts of vsti's going around, regardless of sound quality (as long as they dont crash...often.

errr..my point was...

I'm going for the Maudio Radium!!!!!
knobs...faders.... cant wait!!!

Hope I didnt bore you.
Thanks to all before, its always interesting to see what you'll have to say.

[Enlightend]

knowdoubt wrote:

"As I said, I'm not blown away by the sounds in any of the hardware keyboard synth'samplers I've tried, though they are satisfactory & quite usable. It's just that I'm a very critical listener in that respect & can hear (& anticipate) much room for improvement. Actually I'd be interested in hearing more responses & reviews from people with experience with the current crop of both hardware & software solutions."

I've messed around with quite a few keyboards and sound boxes at places like Guitar Center. I feel the same regarding some of their sounds, nothing really amazing.

I messed around on Roland's XV5050, it is supposed to have the same sounds as the flagship module. I was blown away by some of the leads(I believe you would call them), really beautiful, intense and strange presets, was making stuff I never heard in seconds. I also really liked one of the string presets. However I was quite disappointed with the cello http://www.audioforums.com/forums/frown.gif [tear]

I liked one of the presets on the Karma, I think it had the word Karma in its title, it was very beautiful.

I like some of Kurzweil's newest sounds, but some left me wanting. Their cello sounded quite good in the low to mid range, but horrible up higher. Maybe it is hard to get that range down.

I've been listening to many mp3's made with Reason; the orchestral strings are some of the best I have ever heard, hands down. My experience is that some of Kurzweil's strings are very clean and pretty sounding(but perhaps 'weak' for certain situations), while others were not so impressive(certainly not for the price). However I find that the strings from Reason have more life in them, though I should clarify that I've not actually messed with the program.

So in a word I like many of the sounds coming from hardware modules, but don't see myself paying those prices for them. Piano, strings, pads are very vital to much of my music, and with those + some good sound-shaping options should keep me busy for a long time I'm sure. So far out of all the stuff I've tried out as well as listened to, I am very impressed with Reason, it seems that I like their strings the best(judging by mp3s).

If you have money to spend and want to keep the cpu meter down, external synths might be for you. Some of the mp3s for Absynth I've heard are truly amazing, and it seems that software just gets better and better. When I get a faster Pc I will look to software.

I also think it's often more important what you do with the sounds, than whether or not you have the absolute top-of-the-line. My keyboard is not one of the 'heavyweights' but it has some good sounds, and if you are just casually listening, which I think is what most people do, then the sounds I have can go a long way in the right hands. My trombone only sounds good in a small register, about one octave, so I don't use it elsewhere, simple. In the good register it almost sounds like a damn trombone is playing in the room. I made a waltz with the trombone, flute, soft strings, great-sounding percussion, and plucked strings for bass, and while the sound quality might be improved somewhat with other gear, it is quite good-sounding.

When I was a teenager, me and some friends went over to some dude's house, he had all kinds of musical instruments. They pulled out a guitar amp and hooked it up to some small sound box, and then I witnessed some of the best thrash sounds I ever imagined, the distortion coming from that unit was the best I ever heard.

That was many years ago. I haven't heard anything that has surpassed it, as far as I know.

[diminished]

I am defenately not intrested to have any dance,trance,techno etc.
I want quality sounds like the original if possible.like classical or classical rock,latin and analoge soundish even better.

SO,what should i get and which way i should turn finaly.whether controler + or the other way?

WHAT do you guys think of KARMA?

[S_Michael_Hart]

Hi All,

I am a keyboard player on a national circuit working usually 6 nights weekly. I bring my laptop with me to every gig for sequencing and some sampling and I use many different soft synth and sampler apps but I can tell you that having a hardware version of them on the road is huge deal. If your setup consists mostly of home recording, this may not be of much importance but a weighted board IS! If your intend to play a wide variety of part over a wide variety of styles...the board and its feel IS extreemly important. Some good boards with excellent feel are The yamaha s-90, the FATAR controller only (88 keys), the Kurzweil PC2-X, The roland RD-700. The s-90 has the best sounds+action of the bunch and you can still lift the thing at a gig. Great controller for softsynths because of the onboard USB port!
Check it out..youll dig it!

P.S. Yamaha makes their own keybeds both weighted and unwieghted.
Korgs keybeds are manufactured by 'FATAR'
and are VERY different feeling than yamaha. Not good or bad..just different as are Rolands.
Hope this helps.