Reverb plug - ins suck!

[jbsongs]

I have Waves R-verb and true-verb, TC electronics Native Verb and three or four others and I'm not satisfied with any of them - They all seem to sound somewhat artificial or metallic. I just don't believe there's a plug in verb that equals the richness of the hardware verbs such as Lexicon. Is there something out there that I don't know about - or is there a hardware processing PCI card that I can use with Sonar? I'm generally a reverb minimalist but need a great one for vocals and drums.

[CrimsonWarlock]

I think it comes down to taste. I myself like the Reverb.It from Silverspike a lot, very clean sounding. But again, that's my tatse http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

Peter.

[trainwreck]

I agree with you for the most part.I use my hardware reverbs quite a bit.
My favorite plugin reverb is cakewalks soundstage.
Why don't you just record a track of 100% wet signal along with your dry track and mix it in later,works for me.

[trock]

Have you tried Sonic Timeworks ReverbX? I sold my hardware Lexicons after getting it. I also use the TC Electronics Megaverb in their Powercore card and that one is beautiful. The UAD-1 also has the excellent RealVerb. trock

[jbsongs]

Thanks - I downloaded a demo of Timeworks Reverb X. Not bad! We're getting there.

[dave_f]

you could always try Freeverb. its surprisingly good for a freeware plugin. and youve got nothing to lose cos its free.
cant remember the address for it but just do a search on it and you'll find it.

[narcoman]

Lexicon reverb on TDM is good. However, one point grabs me, i can understand you thinking that cheaper digital reverb in general is not brilliant, but most plugin reverbs are as good as the mpx lexicon stuff. I assume you're talking about the mainframe or possibly PCM 90/80. Real verb pro on the UAD1 card is great as is Reverb one on pro tools. These both pretty much compete with my PCM90 with one important thing missing, less hiss (I dont have any balanced returns).

cheers

[narcoman]

Just to add, on our analogue board (yes its only a ghost) we always bring reverb returns back to channels instead of crappy send and returns. You could try that to remove some of that nasty 1.5k, and perhaps stick some kind of analogue simulation plugin, i usually use DUY valve on returns in protools and that works well..

cheers

[Har]

Been using Ultrafunk's Sonitus reverb lately and have been real happy with the results (I also own a Lexicon MPX-1 and use it as a basis of comparison).
Agree that Reverb.it and Freeverb is also very nice, especially for the price. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

Those links for Freeverb: there's the original version by Jezar (who made it open source), and several very good plugins that use it as their engine (and are also free):

Jezar's original Freeverb site: http://www.jw015a0732.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/freeverb.htm

FreeverbToo, which improves on the original version: http://www.sinusweb.de/

rgcAudio's DX version, also very nice: http://www.rgcaudio.com/Reverb.htm

--Har

[Michael Quayle]

I have an Athlon XP1900 machine with 1 gig ram and a new fast western digi audio drive, and Timeworks Reverb X sends my machine into overload almost straight away. Their older 480l was very very nice (my favourite reverb for a long time) and is much less intense on the cpu for anyone else suffering from my problems. The other option of course is to use a normal reverb plugin on tracking and then use Sonic Foundrys acoustic mirror to create a wet reverb track of stunning quality. I have an enormous collection of impulses for the acousitc mirror now, ranging from the lex 480l presets through tosom efantastic real acoustic spaces. Great to use for the final mix

Hope this helps

[blacknile]

Have you tried Wavearts Masterverb? I use it more often than any other reverb plug-in. Cakewalk Soundstage is nice too.

[dave_f]

just read an article about a new plugin called Altiverb. i think this one will do the job better than the rest: www.audioease.com (http://www.audioease.com)

[trock]

I'm surprised that ReverbX overloads an Athlon XP1900 since I only use a PIII/866 and can get really nice reverbs from it using tweaked Classic Plate settings that use between 10 and 15% of the processor on a full mix.

Re the Altiverb, right now it's just for the Mac and the article in EM this month says that it was unusable on a G4/500 as it needs so much processing power. The reviewer was able to make it work on a dual G4/800 in a limited fashion - only one instance on a song with only 2-3 tracks and no other plug-ins - and with a number of problems. He concludes that it's ahead of current hardware technology.

For my needs, the best bang for the buck currently is the MegaVerb on the TC Powercore card and the RealVerb on the UAD-1. And in software alone, the ReverbX.

trock

[Tim Z]

How does the 4080L compare to the ReverbX, both in sound and CPU demands?

So far I haven't been too turned off by the UltraFunk reverb, but all the other reverbs have sucked IMO as well. Haven't tried the Timeworks yet though.

Tim

[Michael Quayle]

OK with regard to reverb x choking my 1900 athlon and not your 866 p3: I beleive Timeworks employ real heavy Intel optimisations in their coding, as no Intel users have experienced this problem,but I have discussed it with other Athlonites on a number of occasions. I still really like the sound of the 480l and its CPU consumption is so much lower than the ReverbX i choose to go with that anyway. Subjectively I also prefer the sound of it in many ways.

Regarding Altiverb, this is basically the Mac catching up with the PC from about 3 years ago and follows exactly the same principles as Sonic Foundrys Acoustic Mirror which now comes as part of Sound Forge, and is Forges killer app as far as I'm concerned. These verbs are technically known as convolving reverbs I beleive and behave in a very similar manner to the very pricey Sony hardware box that came out a year or so ago. Because of the load these algorithms place on the CPU, in my experience, even on very powerful machines, this is still used best as an offline process.

[trock]

Ah, that makes sense about the Athlon load.

Re the Sonic Foundry Acoustic Mirror, Samplitude comes with its own version called the Room Simulator. What's really nice about the Samplitude one is the degree of control of the reverb (and other) impulses that it gives.

[seevenus]

Michael,

I agree with you in an offline situation that Acoustic Mirror is the bomb and that I too have been collecting impulses as well. My biggest problem with it is the same problem that I have with Sonic Foundry is that they never really follow through on their killer products. Think of the possibilities with this program and how poorly it was followed up.

Do you have any links for additional impulses?

Cheers,
Chris

[Michael Quayle]

No. But I would be happy to furnish you with any you don't have. Email me

lineoneuser <at> hotmail <dot> com

and I'll make arrangements to try and get you hooked up with some more impulses.

[Middleman]

2nd that Ultrafunk endorsement. I am getting great results as it is very controllable across the audio spectrum.

Now their compressor is a different story and I have a love hate relationship with it. It takes a lot of work to get something useable.

[MisterMark]

i love reverb plugins. they are a real convienent way to get some spatial reference in your sound without actually having realestate. i do agree that they can sound artificial, but most reverb plugins give you the flexibility to adjust the paramaters - which is the key to getting natural reverb sound. let me explain. most digital reverb has too much high end in it. this does not sound natural because you seldom hear any room or chamber with so much high end. so i just usually chill out the high end aspect of the plugin. sometimes you can adjust damping as well which helps. (after all, it is hard to find any rooms that are totally reflective). and another bit of advice - use presets or paramaters that don't make the room sound too big.

my 2 cents,

markj

[ALBERTPIKE]

I don't like the reverb in Cubase VST 5.1. Is this opinion universal? Are freeverb and the other verbs dicussed better?

[dalley]

I actually like the TC Native reverb...very simple to use and doesn't kill your CPU

[Leighas]

I have used both software and hardware reverbs, and indeed, hardware is superior in a lot of aspects. But to find the equipt typically costs some good pocket change. I don't want to sell myself short, though, like the rest of you wouldn't, so I use Emu FXs that came with my SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 card. VERY rich and realistic-sounding.

[DJ Taos]

I've tried alot of plug ins and I have to say that hyper-verb is my favorite.

[toejam]

I don't think there's a realtime reverb plugin that cuts the mustard period... at least not on PC platform without DSP farming.

My reverb problems ceased when I started using the TC-m3000, the Quantec Room Simulator, numerous Lexicons and some of the best concert halls around... all impulse responses loaded into Sonic Foundrys Acoustic Mirror... and yes it's a plug-in!!

The best thing is you can make your own responses. Hire a Lexicon 480L or a TC for the weekend and using the digital I/O of your soundcard and some test signals you can digitally sample any top end hardware reverb you like and your days of "reverb plug-ins that suck" will be over.... but NOT in realtime that's all.

Cheers.

[progfusion74]

I haven't heard as many reverbs as I am sure most of you have, but I love the reverb on the UAD-1 card (RealVerb Pro).

[Robert D]

Heh heh heh, a couple of days more and my TC powercore will arrive at my door. Hello Megaverb! And that's all I have to say about that. (No gloating intended)
RD http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

[trock]

Hi Robert - you'll love it :)

[Robert D]

Trock - I better, you got me started on this. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif I researched this to death, and had a hard time choosing between the Powercore and the UAD-1. In the end I found that while everyone loves the LA-2 and 1176 on the UAD, the RealVerb was considered very good, but the Megaverb ellicited constant comments like "I'm absolutely blown away by the Megaverb". Universal Audio is working on a new verb for the UAD-1, called the Dreamverb, though it got delayed to work on the Pultech EQ. I talked to them about it, and they couldn't project a release date. Since a really, really good reverb tops my list of gotta get's, I opted for the Powercore. In another year, the fates willing, I'll get the UAD-1, and all will be good. But by then, processor speeds and architecture may have advanced to where this stuff can run natively. Still, I don't think you can ever have enough MIP's, so I don't think the DSP cards will ever become redundant.
Can't wait for the UPS truck, it's also carrying my new Rode NTK and Focusrite Trackmaster.....it's Christmas in June! http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif
RD

[jbsongs]

I started this post awhile ago and am glad it continues to get so much play - it's like we're all searching for "the perfect wave." I've been using Timeworks Reverb X - it's not bad - and coupling it with perhaps a drum room from Waves True Verb or other plug -in. I think/hope Robert is right in that the next couple years technology will make a big leap and we'll have realtime reverb plug-ins that "kick butt" - then I can change the title of my post!

[trock]

Hi Robert. Yes, I'm planning to add the UAD-1 too, mainly for the Pultec which I love (I used to have a hardware Pultec many moons back but stupidly sold it). I tried the Bomb Factory Pultec and liked it very much so I'm hoping the UAD one will be as good. Dreamverb sounds interesting. trock

[Robert D]

Hi Trock - I've never had the pleasure to use a Pultech, but they are of course, legendary. That, and the Nigel guitar processor had me at one point leaning towards the UAD-1 first ($200 less sounded good too). But as I say, the reverb issue won me over.
Hey, if you haven't stumbled upon this, here's a link to the Universal Audio Powered Plugins users group..... http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/default.asp
I'm gonna post a question to you here, over in the SEKD forum, please check it.
Regards, RD

[Robert D]

JB - Great thread, thanks for starting it.
Hey, has anyone ever tried the Sonic Foundry reverb, the rather simple, unassuming one that comes with the XFX-1 direct X package? I can't decide if I'm just hearing things, or whether that's a really good reverb. I have quite a few plugins, the reverb in Sampitude, and a hardware TC M-One, and I often find myself picking the Sonic Foundry reverb over the much more expensive and touted others. And, it isn't a power hog. I don't know, maybe I'm all wet on this (pun intended), but especially for anyone on a budget (no one here, right?) I'd check it out. It's only $35 for the package, and there's a demo version to test drive. I got a crazy deal over at Mars on all three sets for something like $29, but that was a while ago, and was sold out the next day. At that price I thought "what the hell". Turns out I really like a lot of their plugins. Well worth the minimal cost.
Cheers, RD

[This message has been edited by Robert D (edited 06-06-2002).]

[johnportrash]

This thread has gotten carried away! The bottom line is that Reverb plugins are not as good as outboard processing. They tend to sound "grainy". Especially on drums. Rverb is nice, if you have a million gigahertz machine, but still not great. The truth is, in a couple of years we'll look back on these plugins the way we see Pong now. It will be laughable. For professional results go with tried and true outboard processing for the drum verbs. The good news? The best is yet to come for us DAW heads!

[Michael Quayle]

johnprotrash - you obviously HAVEN'T used something like Sonic Foundrys Acousitc Mirror. Go listen, then reassess.

[DJ Taos]

I agree with Michael Quayle on this, the Acousitc Mirror is sweet sounding.

[Robert D]

Just got my Powercore card and Megaverb...Oooohh! Very nice! http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

[johnportrash]

Gentlemen...this is very interesting. I messed with acoustic mirror a little but never thought to use it to process individual tracks. It is my understanding that I would have to take the *.wav file and open it in S forge. Then process it with an impulse (all wet) then bring it back into my multitrack editor (Vegas) and mix the wet signal i rendered with my dry signal to achieve the proper balance. Does this sound like a good recipe? I will evaluate, reasess, and then eat my hat AND yours if this sounds as good as a 24 bit engine in an outboard device!

[Michael Quayle]

It's a deal. I got a box fresh Stetson here just for such an occasion http://www.audioforums.com/forums/wink.gif

[johnportrash]

I visited the Acoustic Mirror Impulses and ran some tests with a nice, clean, dry snare and kick sample (from the Acid Rads collection). First of all, I thought this plug was only useable with Forge. But I realized it is available as DX in my multitrack App.(tells you how much I use acoustic mirror)Anywho...I used the Audio plugin chainer in Forge 6.0 and put it up against the regular verb that SF supplies-Rverb from Waves, and a file that I rendered using an outboard processor. All wet with no original signal to focus in on the tail and such. Here's what I've found:
Acoustic mirror seemes to use the exact same processing that the standard SF verb uses. The only difference seems to be more choices and pretty pictures of the simulation rooms. Still grainy on the top.(like most DX verbs)Rverb takes the cake for DX. It is a useless resource hog...but does a pretty fine job. And guess who the winner was? Yup...outboard processing. Sorry gentlemen, I really wanted this to work. Believe me! But for now, when I need a pro sounding verb for drums (mind you I do use DX verb for other things) It's gotta be outboard. Man, and that Stetson hat sounded tasty too http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif Good luck to all- I'm outta this thread!

[Nigel Tufnel]

hmmm...jpt doesn't even know how to use the plugin, runs a half-assed "test" and declares it crap. Wow, very convincing.

[Michael Quayle]

johnportrash - to clarify: Acoustic Mirror is not a room 'simulator' in the sense that a traditional reverb unit is, but more of a room 'sample playback device'. The same principle is employed in Sony's very high end convolving reverb, and I belive Yamaha now have one on the scene. The way this works, if you aren't aware, is a series of test tones are recorded in a real, live, existing space, and the response of the room is recorded and analysed, and an algorithm is created based on those responses. The theory goes that this algorithm can then be applied to any source sound and the acoustic characteristics of the space in question will be imposed upon the sound.
Acousitc Mirror does a pretty damn good job of this. I am surprised you hear 'graininess' in the top end - like all DX plugs? Very odd.

Hrmm, I have a selection of impulses here that were created by 'sampling' the Lex 480l. How about this as a challenge - we agree on a mutual source sound - the same snare sample, for example - you process with your hardware, and I process with Acoustic Mirror using one of the 480l patches and we open it to the public to decide if there is an appreciable difference.
Whaddya think? I'll chuck in a pair of cowboy boots with that Stetson if it sweetens you up a little (BTW I am from London, UK, so god knows why I keep pulling out these cowboy references - maybe its because I've met so many in my time http://www.audioforums.com/forums/wink.gif )

Mike.

[johnportrash]

Michael. Sounds good. And thank you for the detailed explanation on how this plug works. I agree it is nice...but not as nice as outboard gear. So...if your hotmail address is legit, you'll recieve a 16bit dry snare sample later tonight. I'll just pick something from the Drum tools or Rads sample CD. You can of course email me as well. Lets get it on! hahaha- What have I gotten myself into?!?

[DJ Taos]

perhaps posting the samples up on IUMA.com or MP3.com so we can all stay participate in the reindeer games

[Michael Quayle]

JPT good man. I await the file with baited breath http://www.audioforums.com/forums/wink.gif

[Sonic Valley]

This is getting interesting indeed. We all going to be able to have a listen?

[johnportrash]

Yes. Indeed. I will be posting a link to the files as soon as Michael emails me.

[Michael Quayle]

OK. I have posted back my files to JPT, we are now just awaiting the final touches to the geocities site then they will be available for public digestion.

[johnportrash]

Here is the link to the files Michael and I submitted. I'm not sure if this proves anything at all. I believe the bottom line here is use what you have to it's fullest extent, never shun new and interesting approaches...and have fun doing it all the way!
http://www.geocities.com/johnportrash6

[MarkyC]

as amember of the general public I've got to go with the outboard - listening with one ear to my headphones - much fresher at the top end

[Reaktorhead]

Well from the two examples, I go with the outboard one. However, i downloaded the file and made several examples with acoustic mirror that I like better than the one submitted. I also made a few that were comparable with a lexicon mpx100

This was fun but doesn't provide me with any insight. The test conditions were just too varied and unknown.

[Michael Quayle]

Reaktorhead, agreed. They are hardly lab conditions, but, as you pointed out, its a bit of fun. For it to be conclusive, we would have to have used stereo files to start with, and I would have needed to employ an impulse of the hardware unit and patch that JPT used. Still, I enjoyed the process. Personally, I think the Alesis is too brash sounding, but where would the world be without its little differences?

Regards,
Mike.

[DJ Taos]

Yeah the outboard one did sound better but like was already stated we would need a bit more controled of an expiriment to tell for sure....

[Sonic Valley]

I agree...I know that there's many plugs that will blow the nanoverb or microverb whatever it is away. You can also say the complete opposite.

I wish the test was about 30 seconds longer and the predelay on the DX verb wasn't set to high.

I'll go back to my original theory which is...It ain't the gear...it's the hands and mind behind the gear that makes the tones. I've been using the stock VST verbs in Nuendo on my last two albums and they smoke. It don't matter if you have the top of the line software or hardware...if you don't know what you're doing...it's gonna blow. Cheers.

[Michael Quayle]

The pre-delay on that verb is as it is because it is part of the patch in the M2000 that it was taken from - in its unaldulterated form. I used a hall setting so it would have a bit of a tail to examine, maybe foolishly, not for its suitability with the sound in question. This is where the drawback of the convolving 'verbs becomes apparent - they are less editable than their traditional counterparts. Still, I for one wouldn't be without it. If anyone wants to hear a track processed with nothing but acoustic mirror impulses let me know and I will be happy to furnish them with it. Cheers. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/wink.gif

[Perry Parkas]

Originally posted by DJ Taos:
Yeah the outboard one did sound better but like was already stated we would need a bit more controled of an expiriment to tell for sure....

- And we would need it to be a blind test as well.

[mergeright]

i just used natural verb in cubase32 its the best ive herd

[mergeright]

i use natural verb in cubase 32 its the best ive herd

[escalation746]

If someone wants to set this up with a PCM 81 impulse/rack or something else decent and well-known I'd love to hear it. Otherwise I must say both revs sounded like crap.

As far as plugs go I have never heard one that had anything close to the sound of a PCM 81, let alone anything better. Then again, I have not heard the more expensive plugins.

[Enlightend]

Originally posted by Sonic Valley:
I'll go back to my original theory which is...It ain't the gear...it's the hands and mind behind the gear that makes the tones. I've been using the stock VST verbs in Nuendo on my last two albums and they smoke. It don't matter if you have the top of the line software or hardware...if you don't know what you're doing...it's gonna blow. Cheers.

Thankyou. Someone's gotta say these things every so often. And I have something to add, if I might...

What if outboard gear is better, in general[1]? What if dedicated hardware is a Ferrari and software is a Ford Mustang? If someone runs around trying to make me feel like **** for having a Mustang, because you can hit 60 faster than me, I'm sorry but I would just laugh. And then I would get back to *making music*, which will always be mediocre regardless of the gear used if it is thus. And you know what else, I don't even think most listeners give a damn. So long as it touches them, which should be our goal I'm assuming....

I made some kind of techno-whatever-style on my Casio, ran the audio-out into the AUX slot on my Phillips sound system, and recorded to tape(because I'z poh). I played it for a friend, and he really liked it and wanted to move to it. I told him something like "well, it's okay, but I need to get the sound quality better", and obviously it couldn't hurt to have better gear. But the point is, he responded by saying "what's wrong with it"? Well, nothing is really 'wrong with it'. I can only imagine the power you folks have, including the 'low-end' - with your 24-bit convertors, top-of-the-line software instruments, specialized microphones, 16-bit digital audio. . .

So, keep making music, even those of you who cannot compete with the ruling elite, with your lowly "demos". I look forward one day to obtaining some of this space-age music gear. Until then I will keep making tunes with my crap gear.

(I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just needed to vent actually, don't know if I got it all out though! ... http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif
-----
1-I think that is debatable.

[narcoman2]

Interesting that opinions here seem to praise very highly the PCM81. Well, its a good unit but do remember one thing - its a software reverb too. It certainly isnt a real plate reverb and the ol' '81 absolutely has its own sound. Sonys convolution reverb system from what i've heard knocks the spots off of it as does the 6000 series from TC. However both of these units are around 6 times the cost of the PCM81. The TDM plugin version of lexicons famous algorithms are pretty much as good as the PCM 70 and 80 (which i have one of each). The UAD reverb is better than the Lex TDM plug in in terms of smoothness. I think a lot of people are fooled into thinking of hardware units as being superior because its a physical unit and they tend to run them louder through analogue board (i've done this in the past).

I think the old statement of "software reverbs aren't as good as stand alone units" has become a bit of a dross argument. Any algorithmic reverb is just as comfortable as a plugin as a stand alone unit. Converters make a difference (ie your comparing your lexicon unit through a half decent desk with Nuendo through a Fostex ADAT converter !!!). The real truth behind all of this argument is that some reverbs are better than others and some people prefer one unit/plugin over another. My fave reverb at the moment is a hand built plate reverb we use from time to time. But aside fom the video game stuff i do, i make garage rock records. To quote the PCM81 as being some kind of holy grail of reverb is just not so. A fine unit it is, but there are many plugin verbs that surpass it just as there are many hardware units that do the same.

Just my opinion by the way !!

cheers

[jbsongs]

It's funny, I started this plug back in April, 2002 and it's still going - that's great. That being said, I was in the beginning stages of my cd then - close to finishing now - and you know what - it's about the tunes! Everyone here, including myself, wants to make their music sound the best it possibly can, - that's what this board is about. However, most listeners aren't going to knock a great song because of the reverb that was used. How you apply it can help boost the emotional timbre of the song from the listener's perspective - and that important. I've been satisfied with using software reverb for this project - and am beginning to believe that a little less is more. But I definitely am a songwriter first, and want to spend my time tweaking the music or lyrics - and leave the fine - tuning to those of you who are more knowlegeable. Of course I'll be lurking to see the next recommendation for the "holy grail" - Rock On

[getthis]

[This message has been edited by getthis (edited 11-22-2002).]

[msparti]

Arboretums' HyperprismDX has an excellent verb also. "HyperVerb" I am sure they have a demo.

[This message has been edited by msparti (edited 11-25-2002).]

[msparti]

Originally posted by jbsongs:
Is there something out there that I don't know about -

(I don't know if your using pc/mac but)
Samplitudes' Room Simulator is Excellent.
It is very similar to SF's Acoustic Mirror and in Samplutide v7, it will be available on each track, and in realtime. You can also get the Impulse Response CD loaded with IR's from high end gear at: http://www.studiocat.com
Good Luck,
Mike

[Mitko]

the cubase reverb,anwida,and TC native reverb,but VST

[AXTAR]

If someone likes good reverbs I HAVE THE silverspike "REVERB IT " is exellent.
I cant uploaded to : STREAMLOAD ACCOUNTS ",just leave your user name and i uploaded to you