Is Pro Tools Dead?

[jneiblum]

I've been hearing so much about the new breed of digital recording interfaces that I wonder whether Pro Tools, with it's proprietary and somewhat difficult interface, can keep up. Samplitude, Nuendo, Sonar, Logic and even Cubase all seem to have friendlier front ends AND support VSTs. I expect that because most studios have spent tens of thousands of dollars on Digidesign/Pro Tools upgrades that they are not likely to drop all that for something new, but if you are just starting out, why would you get Pro Tools when the new breed of applications on the market seem to offer more?

[narcoman]

A question that will indeed prompt many differing responses. As an owner of two TDM systems, i can say that its not dead. I think that any realistic option of competing with nuendo at the new breed of peeps then didgidesign cant compete at all. Nuendo is pretty much as good as protools. In terms of VST instruments, VST plugins ( question over quality here, some plugins are very very good, most are not) and cost effectiveness it is even a clear winner. Protools is more reliable (although my protools III system far outstrips my mix cubed system for crashes, 3 in 4 years !!). Editing is faster and easier in protools, but there are not as many options open to you. If you've got a grand, or even if you've got 20K, go for nuendo. It is great. They just need to sort out supported configurations issues. They ought to tie you down to respected and reliable components and configs. Protools IS everywhere in pro studios, whether or not they deserve the reputation (good and bad) is not for me to say. But as for you're initial question, no they're not dead, not yet !! They'll be the leaders in the mid range market for some time yet.

cheers

[jecahn]

I, for one, have never been impressed with ProTools. Like many "industry standard" proprietary software packages, it always seemed to me to be ungainly, and not as intuitive as other options. My opinion has always been that ProTools shares something with beer and European cars: the most important ingredient, above all else, is the marketing.

It's ironic that the main selling point of ProTools (a unique, proprietary DSP system) is being rendered less of a selling point everyday as processors become faster, memory becomes cheaper and cards like the Powercore and Pulsar become available. It's funny because I have a friend with a ProTools rig and he always loved to tell me about how system intensive it WASN'T. To which my reply was, "You need a whole separate machine and hardware bank to run it...That seems about as system intensive as you can get, to me!"

I think that 5 years ago, ProTools may have been the way to go. However, 5 years ago, I couldn't do what I can do now on a desktop computer. When recording meant "studio" (someone else's) and digital meant "protools" there wasn't much of a choice. Remember, it wasn't so long ago that our "home studios" were little more than TASCAM Portastudios and a "nice" Digitech Reverb unit. I think that the landscape has changed vastly, however, and I don't think that ProTools has kept up in comparison to the other options that are available.

ProTools may still be the only option available in a "Pro" studio. However, name recoginition only goes so far. At the end of the day, my clients are only interested in how it sounds, not how it got that way. They don't care that I may beefed up a weak bassline that was recorded 7 years ago in someone's basement by using a one measure loop exported from the free version of FruityLoops 2.75. The same way they wouldn't care if I gave them a crappy final master and said, "...but, I used ProTools!!"

So, yes, I think that there are (for me) better alternatives to ProTools. Do I think that ProTools is dead? Well, the Digidesign website is still up. So, I guess not. Will ProTools always be around? Probably. However, if they keep going at the rate that they are currently, I think that in 15 years, ProTools rigs will go the way a Atari ST's and Amigas.. Some guys will continue to swear by them but that won't change the fact that they've become relics.

[nocturn]

I thought that summed it up nicely. Well said Jecahn.

[Alan]

Dead,Burried and rotting in the grave. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif

[oki]

well said jecahn,on top of that i thing mac
is going that direction too.they are way behind in the gigahertz game and they used to be the only computers for pro audio, things have changed but mac and pro tools have not.
well monopoly is one of the devils favorate.
no wonder why.

[Melanhead]

Hmmm....well maybe dying a bit in the music industry, but still the standard in post production facilities. I do Audio editing on a Fairlight MFX3 but we had to buy a Protools rig basically to say that we had one. It doesn't get much use unless a client requests a project be delivered in SDII format....Until this " standard " changes it'll be around for awhile.

[jecahn]

Originally posted by Melanhead:
...but we had to buy a Protools rig basically to say that we had one. It doesn't get much use ...

Right! Sums up my thoughts nicely.

[Melanhead]

...Yup...thought you might like that!

[narcoman]

The Fairlight !! Now that is a nice system, substantially more expensive than protools though !! I think there is an interesting point that as long as you get the job done to the standard required by clients/etc then it doesnt matter what you use. It does seem, and this my come across as a little inflamatory and its not intended too, that there are two types of people who slate protools. Those who dont have it and cant afford it and dont like the idea that it is priced so high ( i have to admit that it is a little high, but no higher than getting set up with a mackie d8b and its hard disk, cheaper in fact). The other people who dont like it are those used to a superior tool. The fairlight mentioned above is one of many tools out there that are far superior than protools. It ius worth noting that the reason protools is so popular in major studios is exactly the converse reason why most people at this forum seem to hate it ! It was the cheapest pro system you could get.
Finally (last point honest!) when you add up all your costs associated with buying nuendo, the soundcard, getting the pc up to spec, buying a UAD then your heading towards protools prices any way (okay about 3/4's of them). The 20k price thats always bandied around about protools just isnt true. We have 2 TDM rigs (one III and one mix cubed) and both came in well under 8K. Our two nuendo set ups both ended up costing around 5k. I've burbled enough.....

cheers

[narcoman]

just to avoid confusion, i meant 5k each and 8k each, not total !!

cheers

[Sonic Valley]

I hear ya. We just added a Nuendo rig that came in around that same price. When I first started using DAW's it was on a Pro Tools 3 rig when it came out years back. I have absolutley no problems with Pro Tools. I think it's a great system. I have just chosen to go with Nuendo...using it is like haveing another set of arms or something...sort of becomes a part of your body. And it imports and exports OMF so we're able to still work within the Pro Tools community.

Cheers!

[jecahn]

Interesting points. I must admit that it would take some serious determination and resolve for me to be able to afford a ProTools setup. Could I decide that I wanted one today? No. Could decide that I wanted one and round up the cash in a month or so? Sure. But you're right, I couldn't afford it now.

But, I don't think that I don't like it because I can't afford it. I have had the opportunity to work on ProTools rigs and I find that it's easier for me to get "my sound" with other packages. It's not so much that I don't like ProTools as much as it is that I'm neutral to it with a preference for other things. However, I also think that there are a fair amount of people (especially involved with internet discussion of such things) who claim not to like ProTools who've never used it. Folks do this with a lot of things. Who knows why. Humans are REALLY comfortable with familar habits, I guess..

You're also right that regardless of the environment that you choose as your "native," you end up spending near the same amount on it, anyway. However, I think that reason that other systems are viewed as "cheaper" is because it's easier to build them up in a "piece-meal" fashion. ProTools is more of a prix fixe situation.

"Superior" tools are all a matter of relativity. What determines "superiority"? Bit depth? Sampling rates? Ease of multiple routing functions? It's the old idea that a craftsman doesn't blame his tools. Would I like to have a RADAR II setup? Absolutely! Do I need it? That's another question entirely and I think that everyone's situation is unique. Some folks NEED ProTools. Some folks NEES CEP. Some folks NEED a Mackie Removable System. With this all in mind, though, I think that we still come back to the idea that the end result is what counts. Period.

Narco's point about price point is very interesting! Ironic how we view the same info based upon our starting point.

I'm not foolish enough to think that there is a single best answer. I actually count myself as pretty lucky to have as many options when it comes to this software as I do. However, back to the original question. "Is ProTools dead?" Dead? No, but as the higher end continues to advance and the lower end continues to catch up, I just see ProTools as stagnating. Keep in mind however, that I've just gone on and on about how ProTools doesn't work for me so I probably don't have a clear enough view of the ProTools situation to be able to make an accurate judgement.

[Melanhead]

hmmm...Yup the Fairlight is a great system and I'm lucky enough to work on one during the day, but could I afford to buy one ? Not a chance. I have no quams with Protools and if I had started editing with it. I'd probably think it was the cat's meow ! As most Protools users do. Not dead yet but the compititions closing in fast! I'm assuming this was the reason for releasing the Digi 001 package..cheap but still Protools....Protools is the standard by which all other systems are judged....whether we like it or not...

[This message has been edited by Melanhead (edited 03-14-2002).]

[oki]

well 5-7 years ago it was mac and protools only.they still sound like cousins to me.they would have laughed at u if pc or any other software mentioned.
those days are history,macs are going the protools direction too.
they might not be dead but they are one or two in many of the better products now.hope this will echo some of our thoughts.

all these big studios with all these money invested are in trouble now with some ecceptions of course.the $50,000 otari tr90 days are gone the $100,000 tag magnum mixer days are gone and $25,000 days of pro tools
are gone etc.etc.these figures of course change up or down depending on the mnfcrs.
ok,my point is old habits must change with technology,that is if u still want to make music or sound or video.btw if u r retired from the recording business ,ignore this.
almost every musician or engineer has a studio at home these days and digital is getting warmer too.
personally i know digital has a lot to deal with but once u get the hang of it who needs tape splicing and calibrating etc etc.its like going back to ride a horse to get from point a to point b.no thanks i am not going back to analog just couse i need to get a liitle warmer i can do that on digital among other things that is not imaginable on analog

well beauty is in simlicity.by mentioning that samplitude came to mind too bad that they had to merge,my only wish is that it gets better.i only hope so.


god bless.

oki

[This message has been edited by oki (edited 03-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by oki (edited 03-15-2002).]

[filtersweep]

I doubt some ProTools cat who is running a $10,000+ rig even CARES if it runs a "VSTi."

There is no doubt in my mind that PT carries superior plugins (that likewise cost a fortune themselves).

Keep in mind that we will see 24 bit or higher audio at 192khz sample rates in surround sound and all sorts of other digi-hi-fi madness that will keep raising the bar- and keep native systems struggling to catch up. I'm no PT apologist- I don't use it myself, but I doubt it is going away.

BTW- that Digi101 stuff is just buying the PT name. It isn't quite the same deal as a system costing 10X the price.

[amadeo]

I think Digidesign is one of the healthiest companies in this business.

- They have the best plugins manufacturers working for them, they charge a lot AND THEY GET PAID (no piracy problems here).

- US$ 25.000 is peanuts for a big studio.

- Protools is fairly reliable, and for big studios this is a must.

I don�Lt think protools is the best system in the market, but I can assure you they will remain for a long time.

[amadeo]

I think Digidesign is one of the healthiest companies in this business.

- They have the best plugins manufacturers working for them, they charge a lot AND THEY GET PAID (no piracy problems here).

- US$ 25.000 is peanuts for a big studio.

- Protools is fairly reliable, and for big studios this is a must.

I don�Lt think protools is the best system in the market, but I can assure you they will remain alive for a long time.

[jecahn]

Just so that we can get some perspective in this topic and to stop throwing out arbitrary numbers about the cost of ProTools, here is, for your reference, the actual cost of an ACTUAL ProTools rig. I'm not talking about the 001 system because that's not really Protools. The package that I have listed here is conceivable for a small / project audio-studio.

1 Dedicated PC 774.99
Windows 2K 300.00

The Standard 24
Mix Box w/ soft-
ware and Mix Card 6000.00

1 888 Rack Unit 3300.00

1 SCSI Accelerator 600.00
_______
$10975.99

This is put together on (of all things) a P4 1.6Ghz eMachine and doesn't assume a display or the 10,000 SCSI hard-drive that you'll need. So, you can safely add another couple hundred dollars, especially since you would be using a different dedicated PC which would also cost more. This cost is a realistic estimate for a SMALL studio. It will net you 8 ins and 8 outs and a realistic 20-30 tracks. This will get you up and running to the exclusion of all other costs (snazzy plug-ins, etc.,)

I've been in NYC studios with a rack of 888's alone that are taller than me. Add to that, the cost of the control surfaces, and other assorted interfaces and you're looking at a pretty penny. It all adds up fairly quickly. I don't think that ProTools suites are worth what is charged on them. However, I do think that (like for government work) when you're selling something that someone is buying with someonelse's money, you can jack the price without much fear of it effecting the demand. You want to know the "real" crime here? When Sony decides that they need to spend $100,000 to outfit a new studio with a ProTools suite, they also write it off at the end of the year because that's a business expense! Nice, huh?

[Sonic Valley]

Dude....700 bucks for a good PC? Show me where to stock up. I just laid out 3 grand last month for a new one...

[jecahn]

Vance... YOU said "good PC." I just said, "dedicated PC." This is the price for a basic, no frills machine with "who knows what problems waiting to be discovered" to run a 24|Mix system. I put this together more with the "bare minimum" basement user in mind in the interest of keeping it as cheap as possible.

Also, as I said, just to put some of the numbers that were being tossed about into perpective. It cracks me up when the conversation turns to ProTools and everyone argues their point(s) but no one is really sure how much this stuff costs. You get everything from, "ProTools costs $10,000" to, "I worked on a ProTools rig that cost $4000" to, "My Dad has a ProTools rig that cost $2 million billion."

$3G's? Canadian or US? Doesn't matter, I guess, it's still a good chunk. Did you get one of those Carillon machines? My mouth waters everytime I get the literature from them. They do a a Nuendo system for £4499 which ends up being what? A little less than US$7000 delivered? It's a P4 2.0 GHz, 1024Mb @ 400MHz, a 20G system drive, an 80G audio drive, a 24X10X40 Plextor writer, the latest version of Nuendo and all the Nuendo hardware. Supposedly, they're totally silent and able to be flung off a building with no ill effect.

[dave_f]

i think the mac / protools comparisons are kind of lame. save it for a mac vs pc forum somewhere else.

[creativak]

It's fun to see how a topic like this starts.......10 replies later everything turns into blablalbalblabllabllabllablalblablalblalblablalbla blalblalblablab......my system is better than yours....blablablalba......my uncles says that his dog's neighbour has a better pro tools systems than yours....blablalbalblabla.....digital is better........balblalablalbla....a real instrument is better that a synth....

so the point is....." is pro tools dead ? " who cares...only time will tell...in the meanwhile we have to keep on eating, washing ourselves, going to poo !

[DJ Taos]

if Pro Tools is dead then I'm going to use it to start making gothic music...

[C9]

pro tools isn't dead. it could die but no time soon...Sx,Nuendo,Samplitude,sequoia, logic 5..they're getting better and better, and soon ppl won't even care for pro tools.. i don't i use nuendo and SX... but i did like working on the PT HD at my friends studio...

[Sonic Valley]

Jecahn, This rig we got is a Dual 1.6, Liquid cooling from Koolance on the Processors and hard drives, 2.5gig DDR Ram, Dual Monitors, blah blah blah...lol. I had it built around Nuendo and it's ran like a charm since we got it. To me that's worth a million bucks. The way I'm looking at it is that there's no single system right now that can make me have as much fun working on a computer as this rig. That's what matters. It's so hard to debate on what's better. It's up to who's running it. Sure they'res idustry standards and there's more systems out there that smoke the standards but some one has to be a standard...doesn't mean they're the best. I'm hoping one day the windows media recorder in Windows 95 will be a standard...lol. Hey Melanhead...swap ya Media Player 6 for that ol Fairlight Sys you got down there at Salter Street...lol

[narcoman]

Actually, i was wrong. I just ran over protools in my car as i came down my driveway at 84mph. Sorry for the incovenience this may cause the record industry. Perhaps you could ask some of the crows I saw pecking away at it's gizzard if they'll bring it back

cheers

[Melanhead]

hmmm...Media Player!!...I'm excited now...

[Jmahler]

Pro Tools is the best thing going. Best sound quailty, best interface, just THE BEST. CuBase? Zzzzzzz Sonar? Zzzzzzzzz Cool Edit PRO? Zzzzzzzz Anything else? Zzzzzzzz Pro Tools? Wooooo Hoooooo!

[Melanhead]

Hmmm.....ever seen a fairlight ???