The life of an Audio Engineer...

[XenosoniK]

Hi all,
College is coming up for me and I was wondering if there are any audio engineers or studio producers in this forum.
I have decided to study audio engineering or studio production for college. However, I have little idea of what the life of one is like. I have a few questions before jumping into a profession that so many tell me is too "risky."

What are the odds of landing a job as an audio engineer of studio producer after graduating with a bachelors?

How is the pay? Would I be able to survive on it? I'm not looking for a HIGH paying job. I just want to do what I love and to be able to survive in the world doing it.

What are the courses that I need to take for the major? What will I need to be strong in?

Are there any jobs related to studio production or audio engineering that I may be interested in?

In other words, to all the audio engineers or studio producers, HOW DO I BECOME YOU?

Any other information is gladly welcomed.

Thanks in advance,
X

[Marjen]

Hey, man. I know how you feel. I'm finishing high school and I want to be an audio engineer. First of all, where are you from? This is important because depending on where you're from, it's easier or harder to find info. Your best bet is to find a local college that offers the courses you need. I'm from Saskatchewan, but I'm taking my training in Edmonton at Grant MacEwan www.gmcc.ab.ca (http://www.gmcc.ab.ca) If you go there you will find things like how much you get paid for the job and the chance of getting a job. If you want, write me at marjen23@hotmail.com and I'll help you out as best as I can. Later man.

[eusagc]

guys,

what's good is to hold on to your dreams and to be able to have a job that you like doing. it may not be the best sounding option financially (i mean, you could be a computer programmer or a company exec), but i have this belief that if you strive to become the best, however you can, then your perseverance will pay off in the future. it's just a matter of when...

i took a different route. i am an electrical engineer by profession, then gained the skills in audio production through apprenticeship at a commercial studio in my free time. my love for music and the guitar and the lessons i got from so many mentors in the field kept me going. i saved money and now i own a pretty decent home studio. my first projects were my own, but since 2 years ago, i have started doing local bands' records and stuff. it's not the best way, i know, but this is how i did it. going your route i believe is even better...

if there is one piece of advice i can give you, take care of your ears. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

cheers,
albert

[narcoman]

One key word here. Experience. You have to love this job to make it pay financially. In nearly every case experience is everything. Doing the college thing is fine, but get your ears up to scratch with extra curricula work. I worked for absolutely no money for about a year before getting some payed work. Love of the job is the single most important thing. The course will teach you lots of stuff about how things work and what effect different stuff has and also how to put basic mixes together. Only experience will get the real YOU to understand it. So work hard and dont give up...

there we go. Some harsh advice
cheers and good luck

[BagHun]

Working for music publishers in Nashville, I have "produced" many song demos in numerous studios through the years. I know many engineers and can tell you a few things about them.

An engineer isn't in control of what kind of music he works on. That is entirely up to the paying customer. Good engineers enjoy the challenge and variety. Bad ones roll their eyes and go through the motions. Attitude is #2 right behind showing up on time.

Engineers work LONG hours on mundane tasks. They work with nice people and incredible assholes. They sometimes, at the request of a customer, have to make something sound terrible. Good ones can fix a technical problem before the client knows there is one.

Most engineers struggle for a living. The ones that can do all of the above AND make a track sound great are the guys that will get the job.

[XenosoniK]

Good. It's nice to get feedback from others...
Is there anything I can be doing now to ready myself for this kind of future? What's the best approach to this profession?

[eusagc]

Originally posted by XenosoniK:
Good. It's nice to get feedback from others...
Is there anything I can be doing now to ready myself for this kind of future? What's the best approach to this profession?

naaah, you'll get along just fine. learn all you can in school, and in the end, just forget about all them rules... http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif

learn to persevere, how to put attention to detail, and how to deal with other people, your future customer-base. don't forget to spend wisely on gear. start saving now while you can!!!

(damn, now i start to sound old. hey, i'm only 28, so it wasn't too long ago when i was in school, you know... http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif )

cheers,
albert

[XenosoniK]

Thanks, peeps. Here's a little more info about myself if there's anyone that needs it in order to help me out.

I currently live in Japan but plan to live in California during my college years. So far, I'm looking into Fullerton College for my first 2 years. I've heard that they have a good music program there but I'm wondering if it's just performance wise or what. Another school of choice was the California Institute of the Arts. Sounds like it has what I'm looking for but I need to really look into these colleges more.

Marjen,
I added you to my messenger buddies list. Do you have MSN Messenger? If not, let me know and I'll send you an email. Or, you can just hook me up with some info here in the forums. It's good to know someone who has the same interests as I do for college. What are you doing to prepare?

Ok, thanks to everybody who is helping me out. This is, after all, my future.

Waiting anxiously,
X

[2legged]

There are so many routes that you can take to become an audio engineer. School is probably the most comprehensive, balanced and well connected route towards getting internships and jobs. I have several friends that are graduates of CalArts (I live in North Hollywood, Ca.) and it has a very solid program that is respected throughout the industry. Technical schools like MIT and RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) are also renowned for producing many professional audio engineers. Keep getting more info and you'll make the best decision for yourself.
Check out www.aes.org (http://www.aes.org) and www.musician.com (http://www.musician.com)
Good luck, try to have fun when you can and work hard at learning your craft.

[2legged]

Recommended Reading: Recording

Handbook of Recording Engineering
By John M. Eargle (Chapman & Hall. Hardcover 3rd edition, 1996)
Yes, it’s a chunk of change at $115 a copy; and no, it doesn’t come with coupons for free outboard gear. But this is the bible. Eargle, for all his crankiness and insistence on procedure and correct jargon, is an engineer through and through. He covers more ground in more aspects of recording than most experienced engineers can even begin to comprehend. If you have a question, the answer is in here. —Dr. Analog

The Musician’s Home Recording Handbook: Practical Techniques for Recording Great Music at Home
By Ted Greenwald (Miller Freeman Books, 1992)

A little stiff, but plenty of good solid advice. If you’re serious about recording, or just serious about your band, you can’t put all your eggs in one basket — you need to read a variety of books about this stuff. Greenwald’s book doesn’t represent all the knowledge a $60/hour engineer has in his head but gets you on the right track for developing engineering skills in your home studio. While this book is not comprehensive, its advice is widely applicable and always represented in a user-friendly manner. — Dr. Analog

[juppu]

Hmmm,

I started out by fiddling around in a recording studio when I was 14... Analog taoe machine and an Atari. Good fun, but I wasn't being very pragmatic about the whole thing. I wanted to play rock'n'roll back then... [I don't anymore]

A few years passed and after finishing school, I got a job in a demo recording studio, where I actually started learning properly. It was trial and error most of the time, because I worked alone with the bands 99% of the time. Learnt a lot about people there and got a good grip of basic skills.

Another year passed after I left the job (it was a civil service job, as we have to do a military service) and I was doing freelance for friends' band. Then I applied and got into LIPA in England.

Well, I have to say I've been really happy with it. It's opened my eyes to a variety of different areas inside the world of audio production. Though not preparing me to be a 100% pro in all of these (who would be?), it still gives me a strong foundation so that I won't be completely lost if I'd be thrown into a radio station, post-production suite, MIDI-hell or whatever.

However, I find the five most important things you can work on are the following:

1. Getting along with people
2. Contacts
3. Contacts
4. Contacts
5. Contacts

[Clue: It's got something to do with Extra-curricular work]

You can learn techincal stuff "the hard way" - as I started it out and many people here and everywhere have - but at the end of the day it doesn't make a difference what technical rubbish you know if you can't work with people and you don't know "the right people in the right place at the right time". [Oh, BTW, can I have everybody's email and telephone, cause when (in a year) I'll be looking for a job I need some contacts... http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif ]

Just my thoughts, hope it's not too confusing...

Juppu

[XenosoniK]

Well, it's good to know that there are audio engineers that graduated from Cal Arts. What I plan to do is either attend Fullerton College my first 2 years and then transfer to Cal Arts or just go to Cal Arts right away. What do you guys think?
I realize that a lot of jobs in the music industry require lots of luck. that's life though. gonna have to get lucky on those contacts because i really don't have any nor do i know how to aquire them.
This is great. You guys are really helping me out on my future. Does anyone have any info on Cal Arts regarding the program or opinions on the school? I'd really appreciate it.
OK, thanks guys. I'm still listening so if you have anything to say...

Thanks,
X

[This message has been edited by XenosoniK (edited 11-13-2001).]

[sponge bob]

Also, does anyone know of any schools in the N.W. that specialize in audio engineering.
I am thinking of this path myself, and just starting to look.

Also, what does an audio engineer look forward to as far as typical income?$?$?$

Thanks,
Sponge Bob

[rarenimbus]

As far as getting schooling, a good choice is the Ontario Instatute of Audio Recording Technology. I am currently a student, and loving it!
check out http://www.oiart.org

-sTeve©

[XenosoniK]

Hello, again.
Cal Arts is expensive! I wish I had the money to to attend such a school. More school's have turned up on my list:

San Jose State University
California State Univeristy of Chico

I'm seriously looking into these two. San Jose has a Bachelors in Music with focus in Electro-Acoustics. Chico has a degree in Music Recording.

So, my question now is, what major do I need to get into Audio Engineering or Studio Production? What do I need to do to increase the likelyhood that I'll be given a career in this area?

Thanks for all of your continued support,
-X

[GatzB the Track Layer]

Well, everyone here has given good tips, and you can check out my post in MISS DEBBIE BROOKS'S post about "regretting".

But most audio engineers don't make nearly enough to live off of (especially if you live in LA). A few ways that audio engineers do make decent to good to excellent money are:

1. Working as a perm employee for a motion picture, television, or radio studio, post house, or large venue or school, or touring company.

2. Working as an independant post house, recording studio, etc. while having steady contracts with production houses, institutions, or wealthy artist.

3. "Latching on" to an up and coming producer, artist, or other engineer that will turn out to be famous or a real hit-maker (more prevelant in the past, before producers and record companies got REALLY bad in the nepotism department).

See, back in the day, audio engineering was a mystic, magical art that not too many people new how to perform. Now, with all the schools and books and studios, record company execs like to stick thier friends or lovers or prostitutes (usually male prostitutes) into Full Sail and then into the studio as a favor, thus taking away from the number of open engineer positions (along with many other positions), and surrounding themselves with their own at-work harem.

GatzB

[Boom]

Go to school for something you can find a job in. When's the last time you saw an a wanted ad for a recording engineer? GatzB's right. Theres so many people wanting to do this **** , the studios can get it done for free. They only hire people they know. You can learn how to mix and record from books and some gear in your basement.

[XenosoniK]

Hell, it's all i want to do. I can't think of anything else that I can be doing. I don't want to be stuck with a job that I don't like just for the money. I don't want to waste 1/3 of my life doing something I don't want to do. What else CAN i do?

[NYC Drew]

Originally posted by XenosoniK:
Hell, it's all i want to do. I can't think of anything else that I can be doing. I don't want to be stuck with a job that I don't like just for the money. I don't want to waste 1/3 of my life doing something I don't want to do. What else CAN i do?

Find something else in life that you like, or excel at. Ensure that you are proficient at that skill as you are with audio.

Like investing in stocks, diversification will not hurt. Furthermore, if you have the means of sustaining yourself outside of your "true love", you will be less at risk of compromising your morals to earn a buck.

NYC Drew

[nave]

Xeno,

Juppu, has good advice, NETWORKING with others is your best bet for success in any profession.
2legged had good suggestions too man, MIT and RIT are great schools for this man... Whatever, you decide keep this in mind...

You want to go to school to obtain what is a "technical skill." What that means is that your average or even better than average university's bachelor degree programs will not help you in the end.

People who go for four year degrees for high tech skills at universities don't get the jobs.. You want to know who does... I'll tell you who, the kid who spends anywhere from 6 months to 2 years in a technical school that costs half the price of a four year university.

The reason is that most university's are behind as far as technology is concerned and employers don't like to train people.. They want the people with the current skills NOW!!Business moves fast compared to the old days why train someone when you got a guy with mad skills looking for the same job.

I am talking to you from experience man, I graduated with my bachelors degree in Music/graphic design (double major) from Rutgers which is a pretty darn good school but not for what I went for. I couldn't find a job if one fell out of the sky and landed on my freakin head man. Turns out rutgers is behind in Music, Video and computer graphics software applications and they are not unique in this way... Most schools are behind. The kids who got my jobs went to technical schools like Devry even though I was probably more educated in conventional terms. So there I was with my double major from a great four year university and what was I doing: delivering freakin pizzas man(god that sounds funny).

Take it from me bro, make sure you go to a tech school and you won't wind up in Graduate school(like me) hoping you'll be able to land a teaching job when you get out.


Happy New Year,

Evan

[ElectricAuntJemima]

Take your college degree
Roll it up and smoke it
You'll get nothing
Because there is nothing in it
College is just an exscuse for
not getting a job
Get out on the the street
And start hustling
You'll get a much better
Education

[ethereal1]

Originally posted by nave:
Xeno,

Juppu, has good advice, NETWORKING with others is your best bet for success in any profession.
2legged had good suggestions too man, MIT and RIT are great schools for this man... Whatever, you decide keep this in mind...

You want to go to school to obtain what is a "technical skill." What that means is that your average or even better than average university's bachelor degree programs will not help you in the end.

People who go for four year degrees for high tech skills at universities don't get the jobs.. You want to know who does... I'll tell you who, the kid who spends anywhere from 6 months to 2 years in a technical school that costs half the price of a four year university.

The reason is that most university's are behind as far as technology is concerned and employers don't like to train people.. They want the people with the current skills NOW!!Business moves fast compared to the old days why train someone when you got a guy with mad skills looking for the same job.

I am talking to you from experience man, I graduated with my bachelors degree in Music/graphic design (double major) from Rutgers which is a pretty darn good school but not for what I went for. I couldn't find a job if one fell out of the sky and landed on my freakin head man. Turns out rutgers is behind in Music, Video and computer graphics software applications and they are not unique in this way... Most schools are behind. The kids who got my jobs went to technical schools like Devry even though I was probably more educated in conventional terms. So there I was with my double major from a great four year university and what was I doing: delivering freakin pizzas man(god that sounds funny).

Take it from me bro, make sure you go to a tech school and you won't wind up in Graduate school(like me) hoping you'll be able to land a teaching job when you get out.


Happy New Year,

Evan

that said though, people tend to miss the point of liberal arts schools (like Rutgers, or Skidmore where I am now, contemplating the next step): they aren't designed to teach you a particular career path, but only to give you a general education about a variety of subjects. I think, Xeno, that the question for you comes down to the sort of chances you want to take. A tech school will get you to the engineering job faster, but if you end up not liking it, or worse, not finding a job, you're up **** creek without a paddle. A liberal arts school will give you enough grounding in a variety of areas that yes, you will have to go to a graduate school to find employment in most areas (except perhaps some businesses). But, you will have more choice about what fields to work in, and if, by some chance, you can't find work, you will be able to go back to school/get new training without starting at the beginning again. Good luck.

-Eric

[Audio Goomba]

Check out the Ontario institute of Audio Recording technology in Ontario Canada. They are extreamly helpful with international students and it i only a one year course, Check it out at www.oiart.org (http://www.oiart.org) before dedicating yourself to 4years of University. I .oved the course and I got hired 6months later and am now the Head engineer at a busy studio.

[XenosoniK]

Awesome. I'd have to say, though, that I would rather attend a 4 year university because of the fact that it opens up more possibilities for me. i should be more dedicated to audio engineering but i don't want to end up doing something i don't like for a whole 1/3 of my life. sounds ironic because i decided to go for music after realizing that attending medicinal school like my parents wanted me to do (because of the money and becauase i have a knack for it too) wasn't what i wanted to use 1/3 of my life on. oh...and for those wondering where i get the 1/3 from....24 hours in a day, 8 hours work (average), 8 hours sleep (average), 8 hours free time.
wouldn't it still be possible to attend a 6 month total immersion course after college and after finally deciding to commit 110% to audio engineering? let me know and thanks for the help.

-X

[Audio Goomba]

Your forsight does you credit. I agree that attending a university level couse will open up other possibilities, electronics engineering, communications technology, Acoustic design, soforth and so on. I was faced with the same situation, I took the opposite time frame. I figured I was pretty sure I wanted to do Audio Engineering specifically so I took the 1 year course to find out if my decision was the correct one, fotunatly for me it was. If it turned out to be the wrong field than I was prepared to go to university for something else. Either way you are still gaining knowledge which IMHO is its own reward (the money is the icing on the cake). Whatever you decide I wish you luck

[nave]

Xeno, hi again

Ethereal also makes a good point that I neglected to make, I did not intend to come sounding as if my bachelors degree doesn't mean anything to me, even though thats what it definately sounds like when I re-read what I wrote. The fact is that I now have a very well rounded education, better than most, and I am very greatful for that.

Also, as you suggested, attending a tech school after you obtain a bachelors degree from a four year university is also an excellent idea as an alternative or compliment to going to graduate school. I have contemplated doing that myself even whilst going to graduate school. Bottom line, there are lots of options and you have a lot of time to figure things out. Do what ever you feel is best for you and most importantly just work hard at it. Try to be the best, and you will succeed.

I only suggested the tech school idea because in todays society skills are very important to businesses and perhaps more important than anything a generalized education can give you. They just want to know if you know how to work all the gadgets, doodads, doodaroms, knobs and tweakers and care not if you know what year the civil war started nor if you can factor all the numbers out 26,495,599. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

On that note, I just wanted to make it clear that I am happy that I know the things a four year college has taught me. There are lot of people out there these days that know alot about gadgets and doodaroms but the number of people who have a good solid education is getting smaller. A higher education can reculture you and give you a piece of mind that will help you appreciate the better things in life!

Later on, and good luck

Evan

[bombastique]

ElectricAuntJemima pretty much hit the nail on the head - of ALL the engineeers, producers and other studio personnel that I know, only about 1/2 of them went to a university. Most of them learned by doing - take the money you're gonna blow on an overpriced college and spend it on some gear. Take on some REAL projects, see what you can do with them, have some engineer or producer friends 'play studio' with you and give you some typical situations they face and see if you're up to the task. If not, at least you'll know where your education is lacking.

Contacts and being able to get along with just about everyone are tantamount to a good career. A well rounded education is important too - I'm not talking book smarts, I'm talking studio smarts. Can you solder a cable (and do it well!) in a pinch? Are you familiar enough with both PC's and Macs to troubleshoot any problems that may come up? Do you know your way around pretty much every piece of gear that's out there? Do you know the layouts of enough consoles to get around no matter what desk is put in front of you? Can you work out sync, sample/bit rate and word clock problems? Do you know your way around all the major software programs?

These are the kinds of things that an engineer is faced with every single day - not to mention dealing with clients and producers. There's even a bit of headology that you must become familiar with to not get booted off jobs where the producer doesn't know how to 'talk tech' or simply just doesn't know what the hell they want - you have to interpret for them, do what needs to be done AND have it come across so that you don't seem uppity.

It's a bitch - there's long hours, for sure, the pay isn't great (there's even this thing called working on 'spec' - where you don't get paid until the studio get's paid, which may be months or years down the line - sometimes never!).

I did both routes - school and just buying the necessary gear, doing grunt work and bustin' my ass to work my way up. Coming out of school $50,000 in debt - man, that can buy ALOT of gear, plus you can work at your own pace and fill in the holes by taking single classes where needed.You have to be pretty self-motivated to take this approach, though - it's not for people that don't have initiative. I supplemented my engineer income by doing drum machine programming, computer troubleshooting, studio consultations and wiring and working on people's 'pet' projects. In the end, the 'odd job' stuff paid way better than the engineering - typically I was making $50 - $75 hour for the odd jobs, and doing engineering for $15 - $50 (averaged about $25). You work your way up - don't expect the top end of pay until you've been around awhile.

A smart engineer with hook up with a in-demand producer - it will pretty much guarantee having a good supply of work and you know you'll be working with someone you can get along with (this is assuming you get along with the producer in the first place...).

There's a million other things that could be said - looks like you've got enough to chew on already...

[XenosoniK]

Another question:
After you get out of school, whether it's college or high school, how did you get a job in the recording industry? and what are the hours for the audio engineering job as well as the "odd-jobs"?

-X

[bombastique]

The jobs I got were started by interning in a studio - you don't get paid, but if you're quick and have some chops, you can get outside gigs from the connections you make there. I got to know a producer or 2, a few musicians and another engineer and they liked my work, so i got asked to do other gigs at other studios or for live shows.

If you're working in a studio, you usually have set hours - 40 hours a week, but don't expect to get paid much unless you make a name for yourself. $10 - $20/hr is average. If you're independent, your hours are whatever the recording calls for - 12-14 hr. days sometimes. You usually make more, depending on who you get hooked up with - though sometimes you may get paid late or not at all. This is the hairier side of doing independent work - you have to know the ins and out of contracts and such and know when it's better to turn something down.

Alot of people make the mistake of doing side jobs too cheaply - thinking they'll outbid the competition. Unfortunately, it just means you make less and/or end up with people that are just plain cheap. If you do a great job, show up on time, be prepared and generally just make it easier on everyone else, people will want you back and they're willing to PAY for it - because they know good help doesn't come cheap.

Does that help?

[XenosoniK]

yes, sir. it does help a lot. thank you.

anybody else?

[XenosoniK]

I just read the computer music mag article "Studio Nightmares" and it was such a heartbreak. It was telling the "truth" about working in the studio, and it scared the hell out of me. is this what i want to do? why do people work so hard for this job and then end up getting such little out of it? is it really THAT bad? i say that this is heartbreaking because i've wanted to be a recording engineer for such a long time. i gave up going to med school like my parents wanted because of my passion for music. i had a nack for both, but a love for only one of them. are there any other jobs similar to a studio engineer that pay a little better or even more important, will not ruin my life? because at the moment, i'm scared sh*tless. what do i do?

-X

[nutsadamus]

Hey man,

Don't loose hope before you even start. If you wanna do it for a living, you gotta realize that you got years of dues to pay, and going to school don't count.

I'm not saying getting a degree in audio stuff is useless, but it will largely depend on you.

I went to a engineering school many years back. In fact, I dropped out of NYU (I was a pre-med like you)to follow my dream. After getting my associates, I started as an intern in a great studio in NY. To make a long story short, that didn't last too long because I couldn't afford the commute. I was getting paid 5 bucks a day and the commute alone cost me 20 bucks a day. After bouncing around from this and that studio, and experiencing what the job was really like, I realized I didn't have the desire or the time to keep paying my dues.

I say all this because there's a flip side. I got to be good friends with a kid at engineering school. We were roughly even in the talent and taste department but he always knew he wanted to do live sound. After we graduated, he moved up to the NY area and we were roomates for a few years. During that time, he worked for a company that did strictly live sound. He worked crappy hours for a long time, 14 hr days, before he even saw a console. He painted cabinets, loaded trucks, drove all over the damn place and not once do I remember him complaining about it. He had the right attitude the whole time, and eventually he started doing monitors for some small shows, and soon was the regular monitor engineer. Still not making much money.

It was his attitude that kept him in the game, and not only that. One lucky night, he found out they had the contract to do a Pat Metheny show, a guitar player that we both worshipped when we were still in school. In fact, we went to one of Pat's shows back then and after the show we wondered how cool it would be to work for someone like that.

Well, after doing the show for Pat, my buddy approached him and gave him his business card. Two weeks later, he gets a call from Pat asking him if he would quit his job to go on tour with him.

My point is, dreams do come true, but as other people have said in their posts, it won't happen overnite. Your attitude and confidence in yourself will have to carry you through the rough times.

[Robert D]

Xeno - Still in Japan? I thought you were here already. What a conundrum you face. I wish I could tell you to just go for it, chase your dream and forget about anything else. Doing so would be telling you to walk out on a limb. IF you have the support to do that, and recover if you fall, then go for it. You're young, and you have enough time to test the water and see if you can swim. But by all means, dont jump in to the deep end if no ones gonna pull you out. These are murky, shark infested waters, and for every one that makes it, at least a hundred drown.
Ok, enough metaphores. By now you should be getting the picture that no one walks out of the California Music Academy and goes right to work over at The Record Plant. It's almost always a long hungry road till (if ever) you start making as much money as the checkout gal at Safeway, which is a union job that a deaf monkey could do.
Myself? I went to trade school, the Heald Institute of Technology, and have a great day job as a Senior Engineering Technician. Sure I'd rather be mixing Dave Mathew's next record, but if I want to pursue that I can try to get some gigs on the graveyard lockout sessions at a studio or two, which is usually when the studio interns and freelance engineers get to cut their teeth. So it is possible to follow dual tracks, a money job, and your dream job. You'll lose sleep, but you won't starve. I know a couple of studio owners who also have day jobs. The ones who went to school for a good paying day job have been able to put all the studio money back into the studio, till they had the equipment and reputation to quit their day job. The point is that one facilitates the other, rather than detracts from it.
Ok, gotta go. My phones ringing...that's probably Dave Mathews telling me it's not going well in the studio, and he needs my help. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif
As always, I wish you the best of luck, and a little pragmatism.
RD

[XenosoniK]

Robert D - i'm in cali now. for the moment i'm in san diego but on the 15th i'll be going to san jose. i got accepted to san jose and it's housing facilities as well. i don't know how i'll be able to record with a roommate hangin' around but i'll make it work. this is a nice place. the weather is beautiful and everything is BIG. geez.

i guess after the initial reality shock i started to think whether or not i want to work in the audio field as an engineer. i do. i mean, i really want to do it. but i guess it's not ALL i can do. i can't depend on it, so i might have to take everybody's advice and get a day job. hey, you guys are my inspiration, and if you can have a day job AND your dream job, then i can pull it off as well. i just need to keep a clear and open mind. i just hope that the degree i'm persuing (music with focus in electro-acoustics) helps me out in the long run.

here goes nothin'....

-X

[Enlightend]

One good thing to do is what you've already done here, talk with people, get lots of opinions. This thread is great, you get many views and everyone has their own offerings, as well as balancing each others'.

You might look at the Occupational Outlook Handbook, I don't know how accurate it is or how much info there is for this field:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/

In addition to talking with people here, I would go and talk the ear off of engineers in person too. Buy them lunch, whatever. I think this is what's called Informational Interviewing, which you've done here, but you can talk to more people also.

It sounds like you are in school now. Now is the time to prepare for your future. It is really important to learn how things work in the real world. It never ceases to amaze me how Universities will take thousands and thousands of $$$ from young people, and then spit them out the doors and say, "Bye-bye". I majored in psychology with a minor in music, I did an internship in Human Resources. At the end of my internship, my supervisor(the director) decided to inform me that currently, persons with a bachelor's in HR and a 1 year internship behind their belt weren't getting hired, and that I would probably have to start in some office (grunt) work. Gee, good to know(I should have found out before). It has been sheer hell since graduating. If I had known the sheer absolute unequivocal hell I would go through I would have stayed in school, anything, but not try and make it out here(though that is a negative view, as I have learned many things). It seems that now I am overqualified for lots of other jobs, so I am really in a wonderful spot now.

I hear what you're saying, about 1/3rd of your life. But remember that it's okay to change directions at anytime in life.

I have a friend who went to a traditional 4-year university, he studied Computer Science but stopped because his loans were getting out of hand. He still managed to find work in fact. But he told me "go to a tech school". Everyone has given good input here, there are goods and bads both ways I'm sure. But academia seems to have this tendency to be quite stubborn and do things their way. And if there is only one thing I've learned since graduating and trying to make it in this callous, money-driven society it is this: **These people want experience** That's why I did an internship, but that wasn't near enough for them(one semester). I believe very sincerely that I could do many jobs as good or better than most, but they just don't give a damn out here, they want to see experience, and lots of it(how does one get an entry-level job, when that "entry-level" job requires one year of experience?).

I hope this has helped you in some way. It is good to do what you feel is right, and also to make sure you will be able to pay your bills. There is nothing wrong with making some money at a good job and saving up for some years. You will have to make your own choice; so great that you are asking for input so it can be an informed one.

I suggest "Developing Intuition" by Shakti Gawain, maybe it might help out, I don't know.

My experience since leaving school was so intense and stressful that I started a book on it, though I don't know currently if it will become actualized. There are many things I simply did not know about the "real world", and my college didn't tell me anything really. I discovered that "landlords" can legally discriminate against me based on my income, as well as whether or not I have a job and how much that job pays. I had to learn all about the landlord tenant laws so I could fight for my life and survive after finding a room to stay in(in the USA you are not entitled to a home to live in). I discovered that everyone wanted at least one year of experience for "entry level" jobs, and that they really won't give a rats ass if you starve. The experience has crystallized what it is I truly want in life, and how truly disempowered we are in some respects in modern times. It is best to just live and enjoy that life I believe, but that can be hard to do when the most simple, basic needs in your life are not secure.

I hope this has not depressed you, this has only been my experience. I would say that you need to find out what it takes to get hired, and then do that. And it doesn't hurt to have a back-up plan, and you might consider minoring in a subject for that.

I hope this has helped in some way. Some people suggest using more than just our intellectual faculty for decision-making, that's why I recommended the above book. I hope that you do well in whatever you decide to do -

Enlightend

<Judging by the technology out nowadays, I'd think people can just put up their own studios...?>

[Enlightend]

Another book you might check out is:

"What Color is Your Parachute?", by Richard Nelson Bolles. He also has a website, I suggest checking it/them out.

[jbsongs]

Although I agree that a specialized one or two year program is best for immediate employment in your chosen tech field - a university education can provide you with big dividends for the long term. Simply put, more education = bigger bucks on average (Per gov't stats on household income). While music is my avocation, I've taken my two nonmusic graduate degrees and finally earn enough bucks where I can afford the recording gear I want without giving up eating for a good microphone http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif - It's a balance - go for it 100%, especially if you're young. But if you're a somewhat risk-adverse person - stay in school and do music on the side - then see what happens.

[Fugger]

like xeno i'm also aspiring to get into the recording scene. i'm from manila, have my lil home studio, and lately the place is getting to be too small for me. i think i have outgrown all my toys and ready to move on to a higher purpose ... which is EXCELLENCE. really, when asked why i wanna study audio engineering, i say "becasue I want to be a WORLD CLASS AUDIO ENGINEER. i want to be excellent.

but the road to redemption is narrow .... and expensive. LOL.

i dunno. does anyone out there know of any studios than need a hand? im even willing to make coffee for the chief engineer http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

[escalation746]

Hey, rarenimbus, I went to OIART when it was slightly smaller many many years ago. They had good people and a good attitude. I see from their site some of the same folk are there, so I would recommend them highly. They really know what they are talking about, and London Ontario is a cheap place to live while learning.

I believe they gave me a good background for a career as an audio engineer. But that's a career I never pursued. Looking at the market and seeing that I'd have to struggle on less than minimum wage doing radio spots and heavy metal I decided I had better ways of being poor!

A good education is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a recording engineer.

[ryanwhite]

Heyguys,

Just wondering if anyone here has gone to LIPA, and if so could share any experiences and or tips/info?

Just starting a transfer program that will end with a final year at LIPA with a BA in sound technology....good idea, bad idea? Let me know.

Thanks in advance!

[ryanwhite]

Oh,

Just wondering if work is any better for audio engineers in the UK?

Ryan

[XenosoniK]

i read an article, a very horrible and life-changing article about recording engineers in Computer Music Magazine and that magazine is made in the UK.

not trying to scare you away but just letting you know that the horrid article was based on a setting in the UK.

-X

[Audio Goomba]

It's Nice to see a few OIARTers around. But why is it most of them have given up. It's a hard road but presistance, timing and a whole truck load of luck will get you what you want. I think I am fortunate. After OIART I bummed around Montreal for 6 months, I did a 2 month internship at a VideoGame co. UbiSoft, and Now I am Head Engineer at a mid sized but growing studio. And get this for atypical...I can support myself and my wife and child off what I make ( about $3000/after tax/month). Pretty cool. The jobs are out there, It's a whole lot of who you know and if that doesn't work. Do it yourself.

[XenosoniK]

Amen to that.

-X

[diminished]

IMO,if you are gone do audio engineering for the name and the fame or to make a living,i would say forget it.you will be a drop in a bucket.pick something else in collage that will feed your family evantualy.

but,if you want to do it out of love and passion ,than i would say go for it.

i'd rather tell you the real world,specialy now days most of the artists do or will be having their studios at home with the digital sceen.(big studios??????????)

[Enlightend]

I came across this school yesterday:
http://www.audiorecordingschool.com/

"The Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences"

Xeno - I hope school is going well. Remember that it's okay to change tracks if you think it's the right thing to do. Be careful what you read in magazines; I came across a review of Reason 2.0, the reviewer gave the program six out of six stars, and also claimed that its sound bank(except the Orkester library) is still "insipid"!? Does that seem odd to you folks? I simply can't imagine giving a program a perfect score when its sounds are "insipid"!? Another review I came across in a mag said, as I recall, that some of the sounds in the Orkester library sounded GMish. Thus.........
I also recently read some talk at google groups about Reason, the person was saying something about how 'it's only a starting point in the musical process', something like this. Other people say it rules.

This is why I feel so ambivalent about reading others' opinions, you can benefit from them and simultaneously they can drive you insane.

Have you done any informational interviewing in person? I would buy these folk lunch, talk their ear off, get lots of input(you've got some here). They will look forward to getting a free lunch and you can bring a small tape recorder to get everything down. People talk about internships and stuff, but remember you can get work experience your own way. You can volunteer and work for free since you're in school(signing those loan agreements while Uncle Sam smiles back at you http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

Have you checked out that book I offered, on intuition? One way to view life, might be like a roaring river, and you are in the middle of it. How does it feel to struggle directly against the rapids; and how does it feel to just let go and let it take you where it may. These are only things to consider. Good luck -

Enlightend

PS>Before I forget, there are ways to get around the system in Universities. For example, I had to take a course in Statistics, and I didn't have the prerequisites. So naturally, I took an Add form to the first day of class, and casually gave it to the Prof to sign. I do believe that he would have signed it and that would have been the end of it, but they were doing this thing where his assistant had to sign them, and somehow I ended up talking with the admin office. And so I had to tell them that I didn't have the prerequisites, but that I would work hard, this and that, and they said something like, "Well, we'll tell you what we tell others: it's your money". Indeed, and I got an A in that course, too. I would make sure you know the policies at your particular school, eg. maybe you must have the prerequisites to graduate, I don't know how it is there but I graduated lol. But all I can tell you sir, is that you don't even want to KNOW how much longer I would have had to stay in school, not to mention how much further I would have gone into debt, had I not taken that route. Definitely something to consider.

Also, I would recommend taking full advantage of the various resources at your school, to include, the student counseling center, the career counseling center(may be the same place), the place that tries to get you internships, etc. I would suggest interacting with your Professors as much as you want. It is really strange and unfortunate, how silly social norms seem to grip peoples'(myself included) thinking in college, perhaps some coming from high school in some ways. It took me until my junior year, basically, to finally say to hell with that crap and then I really got involved, and it not only got me work/school references, but it was a lot of fun, my grades went up, I learned, and I even made some friends, among other benefits. On that note, I have to tell you that tutoring really really helped me in some classes. It is really weird, again, how so many of my friends seemed to consider it shameful, or a "crutch", perhaps, to visit a tutor. Now that's just plumb silly, it's just like sitting in lecture hours and hours each week, only you're getting an extra lecture, maybe with a different teacher, and look at that it's so much more personalized. And damnit, you're paying for it too.

I'm only saying these things in the hopes that it might help in some way. I certainly could be doing other things with my time. Best of luck to you(all) and don't smoke too much tobacco please......

[XenosoniK]

Enlightened - i really appreciate your advice. Currently, I'm only taking a music appreciation class which is really boring since i know everything the prof is lecturing about but i just want to get my GE out of the way. I'm trying to take advantages of my resources but none are helping me right now. it's hard to find a job in music so i'm looking for ANYTHING right now. internships will be fine for me although i know i will not get a dime for it. hopefully i can find one.
i haven't checked out that book yet but i will as soon as i get the chance. as for school, i'm focusing right now. i blew off high school (not really but didn't work hard at all) but i'm taking this rather seriously because i am paying for my education after all. and this is the real stuff too (at least before the real world...). nope, i'm not smoking or drinking or anything like that. i quit drinking at 16 (started at 11...), never liked smoking, and don't feel the need to take drugs. what can you expect from a buddhist-vegetarian-college musician who has not made any friends since he moved to America? heh...i'm starting to feel sorry for myself.
my roommate sucks. and does anyone have any pointers on how to turn a dormroom into a studio? it has only one window but it is noisy as all hell. stupid college drunks keep making a riot....

-X

oh, please tell me the workarounds in college. i'm really interested.

thanks.

[Enlightend]

Hey man...

"internships will be fine for me although i know i will not get a dime for it. hopefully i can find one."

If the school can't find one for you, maybe you can hunt yourself. You could even just say you are looking to volunteer. Who could turn down a volunteer, I ask?? Especially if you are like, "Hey folks, if you let me turn those pretty knobs a few times, I'll clean your John each day before I leave", lol, well, just a thought...(I don't know if you're still interested in audio engineering or not, but the point being, you may have to convince some people of the real benefits of having unpaid help. Then when you are out of school that work exerience will be like gold nuggets)

About that book, it was just a suggestion, go for it if it feels right. I also have greatly benefitted from the writings of Lorin Roche, among many others.

"nope, i'm not smoking or drinking or
anything like that."

Sounds like you are doing great. I wonder if there are any clubs or organizations there you could get involved in, or just go to one of their meetings/activities to check it out. There may be many clubs and groups affiliated with the college, and also those in the city that are not. Is there a Co-op there(Cooperative)? I volunteer at a Co-op in my neighborhood, it's a very life-positive place and there's always stuff going on....

If you become clear on your goals, that might help you know how to develop a strategy and use your time best. At the same time, college can be a great place for those who aren't clear on their goals, to become more clear on them. It sounds like you are light-years ahead of where I was when just starting out in school. I tried hard to arrange my schedule so that classes were Monday - Thursday, so basically, the weekend started on Thursday night, and I wasted alot of brain cells and money and somehow managed to hold down a 3.0. But then I got me stuff together and really excelled later on....

If you are going to volunteer/intern to get experience with music, you may have to let your GPA drop a bit, and if that's the case I hope you won't get down on yourself; work experience is VITAL. There's lots to consider, for example when your grades are high you should get more money, such as grants. But at the same time, it's been my experience that very few businesses give a damn what kind of GPA you had in school. Whereas graduate schools will, and maybe you will later decide to go to graduate school and seek to obtain a teaching position at a community college, etc. So there's a lot to consider. But don't stress it.... http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

I found that it was very important to take breaks, I would study and work hard, then I would take myself down to the ice cream store and also watch a movie. Especially after tests, I would make sure to reward my hard work. One of my friends would study for a few minutes, then go bang on his piano, then get back to it, etc. But the idea here is to not treat yourself like a machine, to make sure you are healthy. It is insane how much work college can bring into your life. I knew people who took a semester or so off to get a grip, aint nothin wrong with that. Also, one man I knew took a semester to do a full-time (paid)internship, and it really helped him get a job after graduation. The key word there is: EXPERIENCE. I do believe this is what basically everyone out there wants to see on a resume.

Probably the best thing to do is really follow your own instincts. Good luck,

Enlightend

Down the road, you might find that you can move off-campus and make ends meet. The dorms were cool in some ways, but it was nice to finally get away from it, for me that is...

[MtnMixer]

I was just accepted to the Conservatory of recording arts and sciences in Tempe Arizona. Has anyone else attended or heard of this school? I'd really like to hear from you. I'm 43 years old, 4 kids, big house, big mortgage...but I'm about to embark on a new career path after 30 years in the car business. It's about love and passion this time around. Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.

[Audio Goomba]

Mt....why would you give up a realitvly stable career when you have all those responsibilities...the music industry is not what you would call reliable. I hope you haven't quit your day job. I am all for passion in career choices...but the idea of giving up a stable income to change careers when you still have a mortage and the family to look out for gives me the chills. If you are thinking of expanding your hobby great but don't bet on big bucks my friend.

[Robert D]

Wow, and in the middle of a recession too! I'm 43, wife, kids, mortgage payment.....
I couldn't imagine quitting my day job right now to pursue audio full time, but then again, I'm one of the lucky people in the world who actually likes his day job. Also, my wife only makes half the money I do, so we can't cruise for a while on her income and a big reduction in mine. And to be sure, quitting my day job to do audio full time would mean a big decrease in my income.
But Your situation my be different. Maybe you hate your day job, maybe your wife makes good money, maybe you've got enough money in the bank to cover the difference for a while. If so, good on ya, and happy dream chasing. Lucky is the man who can chase his dreams at your particular juncture in life. Just be sure to be realistic about what your income is likely to be after you graduate, both in the short and mid term. Don't take the schools word on this. Remember, lucky is the man who can chase his dreams, far luckier is the one who can actually catch them.
Best of luck to you, RD

[Enlightend]

http://www.modrec.com

There's a link to schools near the bottom.

[juppu]

Hello,

Just a few random thoughts about the life of an audio engineer and the job market as I know it from my own case so far...

The job thing can be achieved in a limited number of ways:

One is that your mate's band records a demo with you for free, (presumably) it sounds brilliant. Your mates play it to other people, they want to do demos as well, you start charging a little bit, then somebody gets a record deal and they want to record their album with you (cause you're a nice guy etc.), the A&R of the company thinks you're great and give you more work... etc. etc. etc.

Another way is to serve tea in studios and be humble for 5 years, then, little by little, start engineering... This route is becoming more and more rare, because recording studios are closing down, can't afford to take on more staff, record budgets are getting smaller (thanks to home recording...) etc. It's also a very long route to take (not that any other would necessarily be faster...).

Then there's other, obscure ways of getting jobs... Personnally, I got a recording project that my friend passed on to me (and another friend passed to him...). I was expecting absolute terror, because nobody wanted to work with this guy - I needed the money. Well it was a nightmare gospel project that's probably the most painful thing I've ever had to do (imagine recording 2 words - TWO WORDS - for FORTY-FIVE MINUTES... The producer/leader of the project was insane.)... Anyway, the studio owner respected my ability to handle this guy and he liked the sound of the engineering, so he offered me more work, which turned out good, so I'm getting even more... http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif Nice.
Same thing happened when I recorded a demo for an A&R guy at a major record company. It was his own band and very much the same way (from a friend who was this time just unable to do it because of timetable clash), I got the job. The A&R guy loved my work (I did some clever rescuing on the stuff...) and the studio owner was pleased with me as well (I had done one second engineer job there 2 weeks earlier)... So, more job opportunities! Nice.

As I've said before, it's not necessarily about what you know, it's about who you know. [Obviously, you do need to be skilled to achieve the results that get you more jobs, but that's no magic. It's just practise].

Also, teaching can be a good "shelter job" for paying your rent etc. while doing freelance stuff. My former boss offered me work teaching sound technology in a high school (it's the biggest joke I've heard - me teaching?). It could be an interesting thing to explore, though.

I don't know what the point of this post was, except that to explore one person's odyssey in the world of recording studios and other kind of jobs. I never planned this kind of thing to happen, it just happened while I was trying to make a living over the last four months.

I hope this could help or encourage some of you guys, but as I said, it's just one possible way to go in the field, you might not want to do the same kind of things I do.

Juppu

[Enlightend]

http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_making_grade/index.htm

[Sam J]

I was just accepted to the Conservatory of recording arts and sciences in Tempe Arizona. Has anyone else attended or heard of this school? I'd really like to hear from you. I'm 43 years old, 4 kids, big house, big mortgage...but I'm about to embark on a new career path after 30 years in the car business. It's about love and passion this time around. Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.


I attended the Conservatory Of Recording Arts & Sciences in Tempe Arizona
and was exactly the same age as you were when you were accepted.
I was in a class room full of young sharp kids, some just over 20 years old, and some just out of high school.

Quite naturally these kids were sharp book wise but none of them really had the experience that I had. I thought by attending this school that my chances would be better of landing a real job in the industry. My grades were average but I wasnt a failure either, I did graduate but it did me no good. By the way Scott N and Jeff H are great instructors at that school.

To this date 12/06 I am still unemployed and after hitting the streets since 2004 when I graduated and tons of resumes, career counselors, and nearly divorced, still no audio job not even in a radio station in which I had previous experience, and no I am not blaming CRAS.

The things I learned at The Conservatory were valuable at that time, but according to what I am being told now by some industry heads my skill set is dated. I continue to search to no avail and recently found out from other classmates that they too are unemployed.

Knowing what I know now about school selections I would require to speak to graduate students actually working at a studio, or within the industry, and I would want to speak to the students that were about to graduate about what they thought about the school, its instructors, their method of teaching etc. I would want to randomly select whom I spoke to, not someone the student aid department selected.

I am not by anymeans degrading, nor slandering this school, but I feel that If a school tells me that 98% of their students are working in the industry I would want to speak to them all, because as you probably know by now they do not help place you, I just bearly got an internship. I busted my ass at that internship site, washed the clients cars, washed the windows at the studio daily, fixed broken gear that would have cost that studio owner a arm and a leg and in the end I was not hired. I felt used and betrayed.

One more thing, if you pay to attend a school, and fail a test you should not have lab time taken from you as punishment or for any other reason, and the Conservatory takes away from your lab time if you fail a test I/E SSL studio time. You pay to attend school to learn if possible, and not be punished if for some reason you did not quite get it at the time.

Good Luck on your job search and may God Bless you with your dream job come true.

[87PRS]

By coinsidence in 1992 I was layed off from a purchasing management job at a major airline re-man facility and I went back to school at 43, although my career choice was that of a registered respiratory therapist, many labs, clinicals and giving of free time netted me number one in my class, graduating sumacumlaude and obtaining a full time day job at my local hospital, but this isn't the clincher of my scenario, after ten years of employment I developed spinal disease that forced me into disabilty and....a full time recording studio. Being fully disabled I can't work for hire, so I work for the fun of recording and my life long (passion) music...and yes, my wages are nil compared to that of being in my profession, we had some very hard times financially, but we learn to survive. (donations accepted at the studio:D ) Sometimes fate puts us exactly where we want to be, but in a different situation than how we imagined it. Follow your heart and your dreams as long as it doesn't jeopardize your family's security and tear you down.

[jn9al]

Hi, does anyone have any information on SAE Institute in Miami, Florida? Any advice would be helpful.

Thank you

[NewsMixer]

I too, came out of CRAS in the winter session of 90-91. I was able to get a small gig in my home town for a couple of years but was never offered any solutions to intern/job opportunities from the school as they were concentrating on their current graduating class. Although most people who learn audio engineering, do so to mix music in a studio or live, offers to take in new engineers are much leaner these days. Take time,.. make time,.. to find alternate opportunities in mixing by searching your area like a local church, friends band, casino entertainment centers, even city positions like your local sports arena or performing arts center (which are very difficult to get btw).

I've currently been employed at my job as a sound technician for a TV station (76th market) for 13 years now. Pay sucks, so get a second job, a roommate or get married, lol. Seriously, the pay does suck but you do what you do because you love your job... At my daily job I mix live newscasts M-F but have had many special events & freelance work which have included college basketball & football, boxing, poker and even our cities lilac parade (and much, much more!)

If there is a chance to get some hands on experience without dumping a lot of money in school. (and I'm not dogging higher education) Try to get some hands on experience on the cheap end. That probably means working for free. But you'll quickly know if that what you want to do for a living.

Good luck.

[Bops2000]

I'd say why you are young enough, give it a shot.
I was a full time musician from high school till around 28 years old, went to college then, band biz payed for college.
Gave up the band biz for a living, got a geat day gig that pays for everything and the studio to some degree. When you are young and green you are gonna pay dues, nobody "walks into experience, they walk along to get it", (bops). If it ain't lookin like its gonna be fun, then leave it. Live it, or live with it.
The old fart has spoken

[zappa]

If I could start over, I'd get a degree in business or accounting or something like that so that I had a backstop just in case.
Okay, I've been fortunate to be able to survive on music thus far, but the "arts" is an unpredicatable beast!

All the best in finding the right course anyway - go for it!

[mcmillan_adam]

I am also unsure about all of this... I got accepted to OIART and right now I'm trying to decide for sure if I want to attend and commit. No sense in rushing right in to it right? This is hard... Any more OIART people have positive feedback? Or negative?

[Khris-P]

Hi. People here seem to know things. Thanks to the negativity floating around about the career, I am seriously reconsidering my university path.

I wanted to apply for major types of sound recording technology and music production. I planned to apply to University of Michigan Ann Arbor for the bachelor of Sound Engineering, New York University for bachelor of Recorded Music in the Clive Davis Department in Tisch School of the Arts, University of Southern California for bachelor in Music Industry Technology Concentration, Indiana University Bloomington for whatever the major name is, and SUNY Fredonia for bachelor in Sound Recording Technology.

These are some expensive ****, and I do not want to waste dough and time for them if the career pays so little. Does anyone know anything about these specific courses about how well do they prepare students for the career and provide chances for employment? Any suggestions for other courses I should take a look at? What major should I do if not this to open possibilities for a job in this field as well as others?

Details that might help you help me:
- I play guitar and know a little bit of music theory but not off the top of my head.
- I have lots of love for music especially songwriting. I have a great taste for very diverse music.
- I am quite good at coming up with good song ideas mainly for heavy metal riffs and a little of hip hop beats because of my special love for these genres.
- I work really hard for what I love (is it worth working hard for this)
- I'm very friendly and good with people, but I get pissed behind their backs if they ain't nice back.

I can afford most of these universities except that NYU is such a ripoff although the course is SOOOO appealing to me, but if I don't get a decent job I'm screwed for the rest of my life. Supporting a family and myself is more important than a job that I love as opposed to one that I can work with and bring my family and I comfort.

Lots of thanks! Please reply reply reply!!!!!

[Khris-P]

and why does many data sets on the net from 2007 to quite recently show such high average annual income like 70-80k, some shows medians of 30-50k. And then there are threads and articles about audio engineer pains and struggles. How reliable are these? Where am I likely to end up if i go to those expensive-ass universities? Are they worth it to any degree?

Help

[DCat23]

There are many other audio engineering jobs out there other than being a studio engineer. TV, Radio, Sporting events, Live sound for fairs, festivals, Theater, corporate events, etc. I've been doing live sound for a company for about six years now and I've done a lot of live sound events, including the Joint Services Open House at Andrew Air Force Base in D.C. There are long hours, sometimes tough working conditions, and lots of travel. But, I would trade my regular job for this work to be full time without thinking twice (It's currently only part-time work). One thing I can say is, you've definitely got to have a passion for it. Being an audio engineer has been a rewarding profession for me. No, I haven't got rich from it (In fact I sometimes struggle to pay bills), but it makes me feel good inside. Just my 2 cents worth

[Rainman]

I was just accepted to the Conservatory of recording arts and sciences in Tempe Arizona. Has anyone else attended or heard of this school? I'd really like to hear from you. I'm 43 years old, 4 kids, big house, big mortgage...but I'm about to embark on a new career path after 30 years in the car business. It's about love and passion this time around. Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.
How was your experience at school ? What did it do for you the most ?

[dcwave]

How was your experience at school ? What did it do for you the most ?

Rainman indeed ;) . That post was over 7 years ago and the poster is no longer a member of the forum so I doubt he will answer.

[Brian Holmes]

I just *have* to respond so many posts here where innocent folks are about to get seriously duped by all of these bogus "recording engineering" schools. Yes, I'm talking about the $20,000 - $60,000 'tuition' (in quotations deliberately) you are asked to pay for your 'qualification'.

I have been a recording engineer for a long time, nearly 20 years. I don't do it anymore for reasons I will get into shortly.

First. If you are considering spending money to attend a 'recording engineering' school, here's something you need to know. DON"T DO IT!!!!. These schools are businesses, for a profit, and that's all. They promise to give you a qualification, but the truth is that qualification is useless. Any money you spend will go into the pockets of the people who run these dubious 'institutions' and you will be SCREWED out of your money.

Here's the bare facts. If you want to become a recording engineer, or sound engineer, you WILL NOT be able to make a living from it. Nearly all recording engineers are unemployed, working for free, and the LUCKY few (i.e 1 out of 100,000) are making $5 to $15 an hour MAX!!!!.

That 'high demand' skill the recording college is trying to scam you into is a 100% un-employable skill. There are ZERO jobs out there people. NOT ONE. NADA. ZILCH. Any money you spend on 'recording college' is wasted money, that just goes into buying the owner of the scam, (I mean institute) a new extension on his beach house.

The truth about recording engineering is this.

*nearly all the studios that made all the worlds best albums have all gone bust.
*fees at studios have not changed since the 1970's, but the costs have gone up more than twentyfold. Most booking fees are lower now than in the 1970's but the costs are higher. Guess what kind of business model this can be described as?
* Engineers with 15+ years of experience, with 20 or more gold and platinum album credits are unemployed, broke and consider themselves lucky to work part time for $15 a hour now, maybe 10 hours a month or so.
* Every year these bogus colleges pump out thousands of 'recording engineers'. I used to get over 100 job applications a week at our studio, and we just threw them all into the garbage.
* The recording industry is going broke. Artists who used to get a $500,000 budget to create a killer album are now getting $40,000 or less.

IF YOU BECOME A PROFESSIONAL RECORDING ENGINEER YOU WILL BE BROKE ALL YOUR LIFE. YOU WILL HATE YOUR LIFE AND END UP DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT SO YOU DON"T HAVE TO LIVE WITH YOUR PARENTS WHEN YOU ARE 45.

That's the truth people.
(Now, I assume I have upset people, and someone is going to say . . . Hey, there's all kinds of work besides studios)

I challenge anyone out there to present a job vacancy, from anywhere in the world, that pays a recording engineer enough to make a full time living from. I don't think there is ONE good job for a recording engineer anywhere.

So . . . from someone who used to be a recording engineer with album credits up the yingyang. Do not become a recording engineer. Go to school, learn something cool like iPhone app development, do recordings in your own studio as a hobby, and have a great life. But you simply cannot make a living from it anymore. Recording engineering is an un-employable skill.

BH

[sabianq]

i think there is more of a market for live analogue engineers.
public address and sound reinforcment are much easier to make more money at.

i personally suggest that anyone who wants to break into the buisness, should get a job at a company like AVHQ making 10 bucks an hour learning how to set up live systems and learning how to coil up miles of microphone cable.

the 18 hour back breaking days are really a good way to see if you have the passion for the industry.

a good skill set in basic analogue signal flow is a must and someone who is exceptional in that area will do very well.

once a person has the basics down and can implement and design a noise free system, they can move into the better paying jobs like some of the ones listed in previous posts.

cheers!

[Brian Holmes]

I think you are correct sabianq.

Sound Reinforcement is the only way to make a few bucks these days. And, you are correct when you mention 'backbreaking' work. That and working until 2:00 am, then tearing down a stage, loading 500lb cabinets into a Truck (in the snow or worse), being covered in scuzzz and getting back to your crappy hotel room at 5:00 am.

Still . . you can at least make *some* money doing that, but well paid studio work is gone forever.

[sabianq]

dont forget untangling the ubiquious rats nest of 6000 feet of various balanced, unbalanced and speaker signal and power cables...

uggg....

i actually have a picture somewhere of me and another guy pulling apart a pile of cable as tall as us.

i did my time working at one of the av support companies spending 10 hours setting up a show (running cable, connecting audio consoles and other equipment, edge blending multiple night hawk projectors, 5 wire, and snakes and ... placing cabinets, hanging lights, dropping your multitool from a 25 foot genie at 3am) programming the HOG.... ect then sweating a pool of sweat during the venue making sure everything is perfect, getting yelled at for missing a single measly cue.. then having to spend another 8 hours putting the crap away... well you obviously understand given your post)

the worst was thinking that you have to do the same sh*! all over again the next day.

but honestly, that line of work also gave me more contacts in the industry then i have ever gotten from any classroom.
i know people from CNN, FOX, CSPAN, and all of the major networks, plus i have friends at the whitehous and other governmental agencies not to mention national geographic and other organizations.
so the crazy stuff i had to put up with was well worth it, for me anyway..

but i must say, everyone i know in the industry from operating cameras to the A1 sound engineer has all done their time doing the stuff I and Mr. Holmes outlined above. every single person has sacerficed many many nights of sleep, garnered injuries, untangled and organized massivly insane amounts of cable and wire, set up very heavy equipment, burned themselves on hot Likos and par cans. gotten frusterated over line mic issues, hunted down and fixed 60hz hums and ground loops, dealt with unruly customers who wan the impossible and cried themselves to sleep at least once...

so getting into any position like the ones outlined above really takes a passion for the industry.



and with that all behind me, my skill set is such that i dont do nearly as much physical work yet, I get paid way more.

in washington d.c. there are only a handfull of people with such a skill set, and the ones that are really good with analogue signal design, are really rare but are needed more than any IT professional..

the analogue system engineer is a dying breed but the need for analogue is as in demand as ever.