A volume theory

[9MileSkid]

Posted this at another site, but didn't really get much insight. Thought I'd try here:

I went to a show with a friend on Thursday and I've come up with something of a volume theory. I'd like to know what you guys and gals think:

The volume is cranked so damn loud at these venues so that all the people who've lost their hearing by attending shows this loud can still hear.

Am I right or am I right?

The first band's volume was perfect. Loud, but comfortable. The second band sounded like they were compensating for really, really, really small penises. The third band, while also much too loud, was a little better. Still, I had to move to the very back of the place to even stand being in there. I don't think that's what 'so good it hurts' means. And unfortunately, I had no earplugs with me, but that shouldn't be an issue. I mean, come on: why should you have to plug your ears when going to listen to music?

This was at the Great American Music Hall, a (wonderful) venue that fits maybe four or five hundred tops. The sound was loud enough for a couple of stadiums.

Why, dammit?

This doesn't seem to be a problem with more folk-oriented shows. And even Dylan, though he rocked, didn't turn up this loud. I just don't get it.

Oh, and I'm twenty-three, so if you come with "If it's too loud, you're too old" theories, I expect you to back 'em up with statements like, "I find the volume level fairly near the stage comfortable without earplugs" (after all, if it's only comfortable *with* earplugs, what's the point of having it that loud at all?).

And I do know about the importance of earplugs; I just happened to get caught without them this once.

So... Any comments?

-m

[bombastique]

I take it you're in SF - me, too! (Oakland, actually...). Who did you see at the 'Hall?

My opinion? 9 times out of 10 the volume is WAY too loud and, simply enough, it's the FOH mixers fault. Dunno why they do it - I would probably have asked him/her if I was there. Sometimes they don't realize how loud it really is, depending on where the mix position is. Sometimes they're deaf themselves and sometimes they're just doing it to be 'cool'.

In any case, it's a bummer. I don't leave home without earplugs - custom ones that just reduce the volume, but don't mess with the frequency response. The cost a pretty penny, but are totally worth it.

[9MileSkid]

Originally posted by bombastique:
I take it you're in SF - me, too! (Oakland, actually...). Who did you see at the 'Hall?

Yep, I'm just north of you, in El Cerrito. I go to school in Oakland.

I saw Mates of State at the GA. They were good. An organ and drums duo—"How White Stripesish," I thought, but they've got their own thing going. Sort of wistful power pop. The first band was supposed to be the Something Exs but didn't show, and were replaced by the awesome Robo Sapien: two girls rapping like dorks and executing dance moves that would have been embarassing in the eighties (and I mean that in the best way possible) backed by some basic drum loops from their minidisc player. The second band was Apple Seed Cast, the worst offenders that night. And they just plain didn't *belong* there, sandwiched between those two. They were like a sped up Crazy Horse, without anyone as compelling as Neil Young to lead. Ever heard Todd Snider's "Talking Seattle Grunge Rock Blues"? I think this was the band he was singing about... Anyway...

I'm hopefully going to see Junior Brown at Slim's on Thursday (though I'm having trouble convincing anyone to join me—wanna come?). I hope it's not as loud, but I'll be sure to take my earplugs just in case. And I'll think about these customs, too... Anyway, that's what you get when you start me talkin' about music http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif.

So, back to the point: it's nice to see some agreement, especially from someone more into the hipper side of the scene (well, that's my impression, anyway), but I'm genuinely puzzled, and not just whining. If ninety percent of people feel it's too loud (as has been my experience asking about it), why *is* it so loud in the first place?

Oh, by the way, I got the gist of your post, but what's FOH stand for?

-m

[This message has been edited by 9MileSkid (edited 06-02-2002).]

[juppu]

FOH = Front of house

The FOH engineer can also be compensating for ridiculous stage volumes, stupidly loud monitors or something like that.

In live situations, where you want as much control as possible (you cannot EVER have 100%), the volume can get way too loud. I absolutely agree with ridiculous volumes ruining good gigs and making bad gigs sound even worse - besides, they're destroying people's ears. Mine got screwed up by too much studio work, but I bet live gigs have done their fair share in my tinnitus & hearing loss.

When I've done live work (occasionally, it's too uncomfortable and too loud), I've tried to keep the volume level around 100dB max - it doesn't feel weak, but it doesn't feel uncomfortable. The loudest I've ever had at the desk was 112dB, which was over the top. For one 4-minute song it was OK, though. 100dB is considered the optimal maximum volume on gigs, but as you probably figured out, it's too loud. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule for volume, time and hearing loss is that starting from 85dB/8 hours without hearing loss, every 3dB halves the time. So if you were on a gig of about 100dB, you could be there 15 minutes without damage to your ears. [these are slightly paranoid figures, since the volume goes up and down - look out for the DJs as well...]

Juppu

[Robert D]

Bomb, Skid - Hi neighbors. I'm on the penninsula, over on the coast in Pescadero.
I went to a big jam in Boulder Creek over the weekend. First time in quite a while that I was concerned about my ears, which I have been carefull to not abuse over the years. This was'nt an FOH on steroids issue though, this was plain old amp wars. I actually put my guitar down and walked away at one point.
You've probably been to concerts at Shoreline Amphetheatre. It's never too loud cause the Mtn View residents complain when they can hear it in their bedrooms.
I hate to suggest more rules, but this really is a public health issue, and a lot of kids don't know that their ears are being permenantly damaged. Damn I hate to say it, but there ought to be a law.
RD

[9MileSkid]

A follow-up:

I saw Junior Brown tonight at Slim's. If I weren't convinced that God has better things to do than hang around in bars playing guit-steel, I'd probably be swearing that that was Him.

Oh, and the volume was perfect.

-m

[narcoman]

I've always found it to be a frequency thing. If the band hasnt really sorted out their on stage sound (and nearly all of them havent unless they've got money to burn in major rehearsal complexes with FOH and the like) then you've usually got things like a dummer whacking out rim shots all the time, with a guitatrist who sets his amp up at waist height, turns up the brightness and woomp, before you know it youv'e got a mix that bashes out masses of 800 to 1.5K staight at ya. Add to that screamed vocals and it can get uncomfortable at low volume. Most bands need to sort themselves out first, then the FOH boys can have something a little for spectrally balanced to work with. If you go to some of the clubs in the UK (cream or ministry nights) you'll find rocketing loud pa stacks that arent heavy in the painful frequencies. There is no reason why with a little work you cant do that with bands.
I've been working on our live sound a bit recently by sticking mics in front of the band the same as a live venue and recording the whole thing live and then listening back. Whatever i have to change in the mix to get it right, i go and change the band set up instead. This is slowly starting to work very well. The hardest part is the drummer, STOP HITTING THE DAMN RIM you sods, and leave your bloody picolo snares at home. They're not clever !!!

cheers

[ElectricAuntJemima]

Yeah, I agree Jr. Brown is great....EAJ...

[narcoman]

i'm impressed by my own typos. A dummer and a guitatrist indeed....

[9MileSkid]

Originally posted by narcoman:
i'm impressed by my own typos. A dummer and a guitatrist indeed....

A dummer? Was that a Freudian slip?

-m

[jecahn]

Originally posted by narcoman:
...and leave your bloody picolo snares at home. They're not clever !!!


I've been saying this for years. Good call narco.

[Nashville Ed]

I agree that the volume in most (especially smaller clubs) venues is extreme.

There is the loud = cool element, I'm sure.

I really think it has to a lot to do with out of control stage volumes though. Just take a look at any "guitar forum" or "bass forum" on the web. You will see both camps ranting on how the other is too loud (and get this) how can I get even louder to compensate. Then when someone asks.. (pious tone) It's not about louder it's about headroom.. yeah headroom, that's it..uh headroom.

Unfortunatly I do not go out to see bands much anymore and the volume has a lot to do with it. I was in a club off Broadway in Nashville a few weeks back and a country cover band was so loud it was painful. One of the cabinets went out (in the rear of the room) and I was thankful. This was a group of pros that should've known better.

[Thomas NOB]

see my signature below,

I rest my case

Thomas

[Thomas NOB]

well my signature should be

many db's don't make a good sound

now i going to check out why it doesn't work

grtz thomas