which Computer do I buy

[MusicDon]

(Note: I submitted a topic a few days ago but don't see it posted so I am trying it again).

Here is my plan, and questions:

I've played piano for over 30 yrs and now have a Yamaha P80, this is my first MIDI capable instrument.

I now have an ELECTROVOICE PSX1000 System (includes two SX300E 12" Speakers and a fantastic powered mixer, which I have hardly begun to play with).

I want to buy a computer, to which I can later add SONAR Software and a desirable soundcard (Delta 1010 ?). Not counting these two things, I have $1000 budgeted for my computer.

I eventually want to use this computer to do sound recording, of me and the keyboard, singing with one or two other people, while having some backup instrumentation (sequencing ?) I am really interested in loops for celtic music as well as gospel/country/rock/blues.

I want to make CD's for gifts to family & friends - demo's etc. I also want to be able to use this computer to convert and edit my analog video8 home movies and later to upload and edit digital videos (once I get a digital video camera). Even much later on I want to make "videos"with my music...and would eventually add in a DVD-RW for this after they drop from $500 price range.

Okay, I am looking at computers on pricewatch.com and see many good looking deals. I know I want AMD Athlon, Windows XP, ATA100 Hard Drive(s), 400W case, 512MB DDR, but don't know much about the other factors. Do you folks see anything on that site that would be good for these applications, knowing that I will soon add a recording sound card and software like SONAR ? I would like to buy something that will at least let me get started with some type of recording and tracking, even if it is all mixed on the PSX1000 then sent to the computer through some sort of interface until I can later buy a good soundcard interface like a Delta 1010.

Thanks in advance.
MusicDon

[Nigel Tufnel]

I'd say this would be a great choice for you. http://www.centralcomputers.com/PriceList/ProAudio/Systems-IDE.htm

I haven't done business with these guys yet but I think I'll be getting the system that I linked to in 2 or 3 months.

[MusicDon]

Thanks much, I checked out that link, it looks like they have pretty good prices.

I guess there are three main options:

1.build my own computer for audio
2.buy one and reconfigure it for audio
3.buy one already configured for audio
(in that order of cost)

I have to consider that I am really not a computer builder - yes I could learn, but I am really interested in music and want to get playing soon.

If I go work my part time employment a little harder, I guess I can make up the cash to pay for the difference in savings.
(kind of like that old wisdom about "doing it yourself" as a homeowner).

On the flip side, it really would be pretty neat to build one.

[Alan]

Building is a good idea and easier than you think.For AMD and M-Audio stick with either SiS or N-Force chipsets and avoid Via.Use Quality Memory(Mushkin/Crucial)and quality PSU(Sparkle)and you'll avoid problems.A recommended place to buy by AMD builders is here www.newegg.com/app/catalog.asp (http://www.newegg.com/app/catalog.asp) .I'll post some brand recommendations later on,and I'm sure others will in the meantime.

[Alan]

I'll recommend 2 boards for AMD.My setup?Motherboard:ECSK7S5A w/SiS 735 chipset($54.00).Chip:Athlon XP 1700 OEM($89.00),Ram:Mushkin PC 2100 512mb DDR($115.00).Power:Sparkle 350w FSP350-60BTS OEM($42.00).Case:MAXTOP CSX-147K2F-GF($32.00).Video:ATI Rage Fury Pro($70.00).Drives:2 40 gig ATA 100 7200 rpm($73.00 a piece)OEM.This sytem would more than fill your needs and is rock solid on Win 2K and with M-Audio products.Another great choice is the new Abit board(NV7-133R)($89.00)which takes faster DDR ram and is solid as well.Video,drives,Cdrw's are optional but Ram and Power supply and chipset/board quality are essential for any AMD setup.I also recommend going straight to www.mushkin.com (http://www.mushkin.com) to get your ram straight from the source.Any questions on optional parts and a setup "how to?",feel free to fire away.

[This message has been edited by Alan (edited 06-11-2002).]

[MusicDon]

Alan and others,

I really appreciate your help and advice.

I just asked my kids if they would rather buy a computer or build one with me...their reply "Dad, it'll take too long to build one". Guess they know me too well.
- oh, now my daughter says she wants to help me build one.

So anyhow, these barebones setups, are they a good way for pro audio or is it better to buy the parts separately ? I also wonder about starting with a rackmount case...for a first time builder, is that a bigger challenge ? Are there any rackmount barebones out there ? Barebones expecially suited for audio ? (hey maybe there's a small nitch market)

I see that a 3U is the size it takes to put in cards upright, so maybe that would be the easiest to work with.

Cheers

[Alan]

I'm not sure what bare-bones setup your'e reffering to.Again,if your'e going to go AMD use either a SiS 735 or N-Force chipset especially if your'e going to use M-Audio cards,otherwise your'e asking for trouble.The only Pre-Configured PC I would use for audio would be a Dell with a P4 or P3,for AMD and Pro-Audio you have to build it with the proper chipset or your just throwing your $$$ out the window.

[cdrakejr]

The great advantage of building your own PC is the ability to tailor it specifically to your needs and being able to upgrade freely.
Most systems from Dell, Gateway, etc. only allow very limited upgrades (they really want you to buy another new system from them). In today's market you won't really save money upfront, but it will pay off when you want to upgrade things.

If I understand what you are wanting to do then it doesn't make sense to invest in things you really don't need. The following system is fully functional, with high-quality components, and would give you the foundation to build on.

All the parts come from http://www.tcwo.com :

Antec Performance Plus case with 430W power supply $146
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (retail boxed) $105
MSI K7N420 Pro motherboard $138
Western Digital 80GB hard drive $114
Lite-On 40x12x48 CDR/RW (retail box)$ 83
Toshiba 16x DVD $ 56
Floppy drive $ 14
Misc. cables @$ 10
Windows XP Home Edition (OEM) $ 93
Total shipped $759

Crucial 512MB DDR2100
(2 256MB modules, shipped) $ 80
http://www.crucial.com

Computer total $839

Since the motherboard has good quality built-in audio/video, you save on sound card and video card until you want to add your high-end sound card.
If you need dial-up Internet access, then you would have to add a modem to the list.
This leaves the monitor which can start at $150 for a basic 17" model and up.

Before this becomes "the great American novel", I'll give you this link to a review of the motherboard (remember that most reviewers are looking at things from a gamers point of view):
http://www.nvmax.com/Articles/Reviews/MSI_K7N420PRO/

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by cdrakejr (edited 06-12-2002).]

[Reaktorhead]

FYI, building a computer from scratch doesn't take very long once you have the components purchased, sitting on a table, and a couple of screwdrivers. Folks with experience can do it in a couple of hours and then another couple of hours or so to format drives and install software.

However if you haven't done it before, and/or are sqeamish about such things it can take considerably longer. Also if your kids are saying it will take too long, maybe they are basing their opinion on experience with other home projects? http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif Sometimes children and spouses give the best advice!

Good luck!

[MusicDon]

I have decided that I am going to go ahead and give it a try....using the computer parts list above (thank you cdrakejr!).

I will hold off on the Delta 1010 till a later time - when budgeting allows me to add it.

Any last bits of advice before I order ?
I searched for those parts individually on Pricewatch.com and though some are to be found cheaper than tcwo.com by a few bucks here and there, I guess it's simpler and easier to buy all at the same place - and the shipping is free at tcwo. Do people have good things to say about tcwo.com ? Any problems ?

Oh yeah, what about firewire, is that something I can easily add to this motherboard at a later time too ? I understand that is good for hooking up to digital video cameras ( which I want to later use to make musicvideos )

Thanks again
Don

[Reaktorhead]

Definitely check out www.newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com) for price comparison.

Yes firewire can be easily added later as a PCI card. No problem there.

Good luck and have fun!

[rhing]

I'm with Nigel. I strongly recommend Central Computer. They sell assembled systems, barebone kitss and components for the PC and pro audio enthusiast. If you really want to roll your own, consult with the people at Central Computer. They can tell you which fans are best for DAWs, the best motherboards for audio, etc. Personally, I would let them build a system for you based on your price range. You'll get a very affordable, high quality system that you can later upgrade yourself. The key here is that they've built and sold many systems, so they will know which combination of components will produce optimal results and maximum system stability. They're a large enough outfit to provide good, competitive prices also.

[Alan]

Just a word of caution,the guy's at the AMD-ZONE forum are having trouble with the MSI board,some even claim it's defective,but all agree that the Abit I mentioned is a winner.Both have the same chipset and the Abit is $50.00 cheaper.I don't own either so I can't really confirm anything,but they haven't given me bad advice yet.I'd do a little checking if I were you.A review is one thing,but user reports are another.

[Alan]

Ok,I started a thread for at AMD-Zone asking about user experiences and differences between the 2 boards.Here's the link http://bbs.pcstats.com/amdzone/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=61185

[MusicDon]

Anyone have additional info about the ABIT vs the MSI motherboard for DAW application?

These don't use a VIA chipset do they ? I read elsewhere that the VIA doesn't work well with Athlon XP.

[Alan]

They both use N-Fore(N-Vidia)which is why we recommended them.

[+Erik+]

some people will disagree with me on this and some won't.

Go with an NFORCE chipset, its rock solid and stay away from Sis735. A lot of people have severe ram problems with this. Sometimes you cannot run full speed DDR and have to underclock to get a stable system. i know of many cases of this and i changed my board from sis 735 to nforce and never looked back.

again, some will disagree and say they have no problems but get and other Sis then 735, but i recommend NForce!

[Alan]

Originally posted by +Erik+:
some people will disagree with me on this and some won't.

stay away from Sis735. A lot of people have severe ram problems with this. Sometimes you cannot run full speed DDR and have to underclock to get a stable system. That is a load of crap!The only problems I've ever seen on the SiS 735(ECS)was early boards put out by ECS(quality control)which was remedied long ago,and some early bios problems which have also long been solved.As far as ram goes,you'll have problems with any AMD chipset and cheap or defective ram,or cheap or underated PSU, period.I'm using one with Mushkin DDR at cas 2 and thing the thing hasn't blinked since I set it up.The NForce may be a little faster and just as stable,but the knock on the SiS chipset is totally innacurate to say the least.This isn't merely my opinion either.Here's a little sampling of the ECS/SiS lovefest www.kvr-vst.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001445 (http://www.kvr-vst.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001445)

[MusicDon]

It has been a few weeks since I worked on this plan to build a DAW. Has anything changed ? lol - just kidding

I am thinking I will move ahead with the configuration described by cdrakejr above.
Does anyone have a similar configuration who can shed any more light on it ?

Thanks

[MusicDon]

To cdrakejr and others,

If I build a computer using the recipe below, would I gain or lose anything by upgrading from the recommended 1800XP to a 1900, 2000, 2100 or 2200 XP ? In other words, is everything else on the shopping list compatible with the higher processors ? I think the 2100+ is the highest I would go since the 2200 towers the others with higher cost.

Also, if I order a Western Digital 80GB/7200 and also a Western Digital 20GB/7200 hardrive, is there any special hardware or software requirements to install both ? I am thinking I will put the Operating System, internet browswer, word processor etc on the 20GB drive and use the 80 for music only.

Thank you in advance.
Don
................
cdrakejr
Member posted 06-12-2002 02:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The great advantage of building your own PC is the ability to tailor it specifically to your needs and being able to upgrade freely.
Most systems from Dell, Gateway, etc. only allow very limited upgrades (they really want you to buy another new system from them). In today's market you won't really save money upfront, but it will pay off when you want to upgrade things.
If I understand what you are wanting to do then it doesn't make sense to invest in things you really don't need. The following system is fully functional, with high-quality components, and would give you the foundation to build on.

All the parts come from http://www.tcwo.com :

Antec Performance Plus case with 430W power supply $146
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (retail boxed) $105
MSI K7N420 Pro motherboard $138
Western Digital 80GB hard drive $114
Lite-On 40x12x48 CDR/RW (retail box)$ 83
Toshiba 16x DVD $ 56
Floppy drive $ 14
Misc. cables @$ 10
Windows XP Home Edition (OEM) $ 93
Total shipped $759

Crucial 512MB DDR2100
(2 256MB modules, shipped) $ 80 http://www.crucial.com

Computer total $839

Since the motherboard has good quality built-in audio/video, you save on sound card and video card until you want to add your high-end sound card.
If you need dial-up Internet access, then you would have to add a modem to the list.
This leaves the monitor which can start at $150 for a basic 17" model and up.

Before this becomes "the great American novel", I'll give you this link to a review of the motherboard (remember that most reviewers are looking at things from a gamers point of view): http://www.nvmax.com/Articles/Reviews/MSI_K7N420PRO/

[MusicDon]

:

[jaq]

Processor speed...
You won't find much difference from one to the next. I tend to check the prices and buy the fastest one just before the price curve heads for the roof.

You should not have compatability issues what works with an 1800XP should work with a 2100XP. You may need to flash the BIOS to get your MOBO to recognize a newer CPU.

Queue

[wockachucka]

if you've never done it before, you should definitely look at this:
http://www.buildeasypc.com/hw/howto/assemblepc.htm

[MusicDon]

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate that link too, it is pretty informative and I will most liklely use it while I work on this project.

RACKMOUNT ?? Would the above components, particularly the MSI board, work suitably in a rackmount unit ? Can someone recommend a rackmount case, color black or aluminum ? I am figuring a 3U is about the right size, I don't want a monster but I don't want to have to use tweezers to put it together either.

Cheers

[dkay101]

My system:
A7S333 (SiS 745 chipset)
Athlon 2000XP
512 MB 2100DDR Crucial
matrox G400
dvd/cd-burner.
Seagate IV 80GB.
soundcard: Delta 44

No problems. Recording @ 5ms latency with 65% CPU-load, playback @ 3ms latency with 65% CPU-load. No glitches.

No problem installing. No tweaking needed. (except disable PCI-bus mastering for G400, and optimize WinXP for backgroundtasks).

The only problem so far is that I havent been able to install ASPI drivers correctly. No idea why, so I can't use HALion yet to rip my AKAI-cd's. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/frown.gif.

[MusicDon]

I have another question, this pertaining to the two hard drives.

Do most people save only the finished music files on the extra drive ? or do they install the music recording software applications AND the music on the one drive, and the Operating System plus other software such as word processing, internet browser etc. on the other one ?

[Alan]

Originally posted by MusicDon:
I have another question, this pertaining to the two hard drives.

Do most people save only the finished music files on the extra drive ?
No,install your apps on your OS drive,and set your music apps to record and save on your dedicated recording drive.

[MusicDon]

Okay, I see....will set it up that way. Thank you much !

I am still trudging along here, haven't set up the computer yet. I have instead taken the past few weeks to prepare my sound studio in the basement. The room will be, for the most part, soundproof from the rest of the house. With Christmas coming along the personal spending rightly went to other things...but maybe now I can find a bargain on computer parts.

Cheers all and Merry Christmas.

[MusicDon]

Here I am months later since my last post about this computer I am going to build. Well, as it would be, the sound studio was put behind the basement finishing project in priority - so I still haven't built this computer. That's okay, it is still a goal - just slightly delayed.

Would this computer still be a good one ? Would these parts still be recommended ? (Prices were from last year).

Antec Performance Plus case with 430W power supply $146
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (retail boxed) $105
MSI K7N420 Pro motherboard $138
Western Digital 80GB hard drive $114
Lite-On 40x12x48 CDR/RW (retail box)$ 83
Toshiba 16x DVD $ 56
Floppy drive $ 14
Misc. cables @$ 10
Windows XP Home Edition (OEM) $ 93
Total shipped $759
Plus-
Crucial 512MB DDR2100

[maggotcontrol]

You could do so much better with a different motherboard. Go with the Epox 8RDA+ or the Asus A7N8X with an ATI Radeon VE card. Just don't use Crucial memory with these boards if you want to run 166FSB..you will bluescreen or just have random crashes. You'd need Corsair XMS LLPT or Twinmos 2700/3200 with Winbond chips. The performance difference will be great with the nForce 2 chipset over the 420 series.

Yoshi
www.studiokobari.com (http://www.studiokobari.com)

[dawboxpro]

You are getting grilled on those parts if they are not going to build and support that unit.

The CPU goes for $58, The CDRW for $40 the Drive for $83.00

Just an observation


You need more balls under the hood as far as MB and CPU power.

OS Software: XP-2400
AMD-A7V8X-L
80G-Seagate-IV-7200
1.44mb Black
512-DDR2700
32m-Radeon-7000 Video
CDRW-DVD LG Goldstar 48X24X48+16X DVD-ROM
SP-MD-BLK Case with Silent Power 22db
Windows-XP Home
_______________________

$869.99 Built, Tested and Configured as a DAW with support.






[This message has been edited by dawboxpro (edited 05-21-2003).]

[MusicDon]

Those parts prices were last years prices, just cut and pasted from a post earlier in the thread.

The DAW box you describe sounds like a very fair price, especially being built and having support to go along with it. You have me thinking....I really want to get making music as soon as I can - this basement project has kept me off the piano for about six months now, with a few exceptions and gigs in the middle.

But, then again, building a DAW was going to be part of my education in computer based music technology. hmmmm - I will ponder this idea for awhile.

Does anyone have this particular setup and have any recommendations regarding it ? I haven't yet selected my software, probably Sonar or Cubase.

Cheers.

[MusicDon]

I see that the motherboard you list has a VIA chipset KT400. With all that I hear against the VIA chipsets in DAWs, are they refering to the earlier generation VIA ?

[terrorbeat]

A couple thoughts for you.

1) You'll probably notice a bigger performance increase by adding more RAM than adding a slightly faster CPU. The difference between say an 1800 and a 2200 probably isn't going to knock your socks off, or even really be noticable.

2) You can go either way, build or buy. You can have a great experience, or get screwed, either way. Just make sure whatever system you get has name-brand quality components. I noticed some of the above had things like Asus mobos, etc. That's good. Don't buy no-name crap, you'll get burnt.

3) If you decide to build, make sure the parts you are getting aren't just the cheapest. Sometimes, a difference of $20 can ALSO be the difference between the part in a static bag or the part in a box with a manual and contact info. For someone who's savvy, that may mean nothing. To someone like you, considering building for the first time, I'd recommend making sure you buy boxed components if you can. You may need the help a manual in front of you can offer.

Good luck! Let us know how it works out.

[maggotcontrol]

The nForce 2 boards will perform better than the KT400 based board when setup properly, especially with a high FSB in sync with memory. Might want to use them over the A7V8X.

Yoshi
www.studiokobari.com (http://www.studiokobari.com)

[Spacejunk]

I have an Epox 8rga+ (Nforce2), and I can recommend it.
Besides having DUAL head onboard geforce graphics, the quality of the onboard sound is quite good. Also the low latency ASIO drivers work well. Make sure you download the latest from Nvida.

[MusicDon]

That Epox does look like an interesting MB, the dual graphics feature would be good, so as not to have to install a separate card, such as the dual matrox graphics.

The two microphone inputs and onboard sounds could probably allow some reasonable recording capability as is, until I could afford the Delta 1010 or whatever kind of soundcard set up I would want. At least I would have something to put together some demos.

Has anyone else had good success with this board vs. the other recommendations above ?

>>>>>original message:
I have an Epox 8rga+ (Nforce2), and I can recommend it.
Besides having DUAL head onboard geforce graphics, the quality of the onboard sound is quite good. Also the low latency ASIO drivers work well. Make sure you download the latest from Nvida.

[maggotcontrol]

Been using the 8RDA+ for awhile now and it's been very good. I highly recommend it especially if you're into overclocking or just want a solid quality board. I've got an Athlon XP 1700+ (1.47GHz) running at 2.2GHz without a hiccup. Have not yet tested out the 8RGA series.

Yoshi
www.studiokobari.com (http://www.studiokobari.com)

[This message has been edited by maggotcontrol (edited 05-30-2003).]

[Spacejunk]

The 8RGA+ is the same as 8RDA+, but with dual Graphics. I'm using two monitors with mine. Just remember that if you want to add a third or fourth monitor, you'll have to add PCI cards. (You cannot use the onboard VGA and an AGP card.)
Cubase seems to like the Nforce ASIO driver, so I see no reason why you couldn't get pretty decent demos until you buy the 1010.
I had a delta audiophile in my rig for a while, and it ran beautifully, but I had to install it in one of the unshared PCI slots.
(The 8RGA+ has six).
Good Luck

[MusicDon]

8RGA+ sure seems like the right Mobo for my application. Dual video capability will be a major benefit.

[MusicDon]

Guess I oughta just check and see, if anything better has come out yet.

Still haven't built this computer...but I really am gonna do this one day.

Got delayed by many other things.
Oh well, some day I will slow down and get around to this.

[brzilian]

Originally posted by MusicDon:
Thanks much, I checked out that link, it looks like they have pretty good prices.

I guess there are three main options:

1.build my own computer for audio
2.buy one and reconfigure it for audio
3.buy one already configured for audio
(in that order of cost)

I have to consider that I am really not a computer builder - yes I could learn, but I am really interested in music and want to get playing soon.

If I go work my part time employment a little harder, I guess I can make up the cash to pay for the difference in savings.
(kind of like that old wisdom about "doing it yourself" as a homeowner).

On the flip side, it really would be pretty neat to build one.

I think it would be better for you to go with a computer already put together from a vendor like vprMatrix.
www.vprmatrix.com (http://www.vprmatrix.com)

They are BestBuy's house brand and are actually very good systems. Unlike Dell, Gateway and HP systems, they use quality standard components which makes this system easy to upgrade.

They are also not targetting the low end customer. These systems come with things like USB 2.0, Firewire ports and even RAID controllers.

The best part for me was that because you buy it through BestBuy, you can make use of their no interest financing.

Up until now, I have always built my own systems, but, I have been very happy with mine which I bought a year ago.

[Aunt Harriet]

Hey Music Don ,enough info for ya? Its ALL GOOD! There may be a little "sidetracking" going on here. You did originally mention Video and DVD? Well DVD+-Rw have been around $250 for about 6 months now you should add one for your Video needs and for Data Backup.Each DvD disc can hold up to(around) 4.7 Gb of Data.Slightly more than a CDR/RW(750MB). I hope helps you with one of your original questions. Aunt Harriet http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif

[Bops2000]

I just glanced at the above postings, so If I am wrong, just blow me off
you can just go with a soyo bare bones, intel via chip, 2.x speed. I guess about 350 bucks.
I run p233's, 400's and 450' as well as my soyo 2 gigger, and it is geeky fun, I learn so much by configuring them, and learn why i have to configure them that way. (<--that was the edit)
as far a fsb(front side board?), I think don't worry about it, it's gona change and change and change, go cheap,
think of it as golfing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

missed the (thru) putt $5#@#@@

Seriously, though, if you can build it then you can break it, and then fix it.
Buildin a puter is easier than hot roddin' the family car these days
Boppers

[This message has been edited by Bops2000 (edited 08-27-2003).]

[dawboxpro]

It is easy to assemble and easy to scre up of you do not have a grasp on assembly and how the parts go in the system.

I have seen so many guys break ram, bend pins, fry motherboards.

Just like not everyone should do there own taxes, not everoone should build there own system.

Some guys insist on doing everything and get knowhere with there music.
We offer a solution, a affordable build price/service and a warranty.

Enuff said!

DAWBOX Digital Audio Workstations
www.dawbox.com (http://www.dawbox.com)