Latency with Samplitude???

[SoundZiLL]

I was using the demo of Samplitude, and correct me if I'm wrong but does Samplitude use ASIO or WDM at all? If not, then how does latency with live audio monitoring compare with Sonar/Cubase SX? I can say that I liked the interface WAY more than both of the mentioned apps, but I can get between 3-6 ms latency on both using my M-audio Audiophile 2496 card. With Samplitude, I could not monitor my vocals with effects, and my levels on my meters were noticably lagging behind the actual sound.

I looked in the configuration screen and found a whole slew of buffer settings, but without the knowledge of what each setting does it is kind of hard to tell how to adjust them for better latency.

Comments?

Thanks,

A future Samplitude user (hopefully)

ps. what's the deal with Emagic? are they going to release the new Samplitude or what?!?!??!

[HeatherBiblow]

WDM drivers are supported since 6.04 (but not the so called Sonar kernel streaming joke).

ASIO and low latency monitoring is coming in version 6.5. I´ve seen a beta version some time ago with an incredible low latency. It was possible, to reach lower ASIO buffers than in SX or Nuendo on the same system.
It should be possible with 6.5, to integrate external equipment with nearly zero latency in Sams mixer. Unfortunately live input signals can not processed with Samplitude internal effects, only volume, pan, auxes and busses work. Like the mixer of RMEs Hammerfall DSP.
The mixer effects work with large buffers (see the VIP buffer setting). I don´t believe, we see Sams high class effects on external signals soon.

But the biggest problem at the moment is the difficult Apple/Emagic situation. I don´t think, Apple will distribute a superior PC only software, like Samplitude, so maybe Magix will sell 6.5 again direct to all customers again.

[SoundZiLL]

Thanks for your response Heather.

When you say, "WDM drivers are supported since 6.04 (but not the so called Sonar kernel streaming joke)."

Does that mean that Samps WDM drivers are BETTER than Sonar's or WORSE?

Doing a little bit of research, I found some people that say that they can get pretty low latency with Samp, but none of these people will tell me HOW to obtain low latency.

Any tips you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[HeatherBiblow]

OK, i will try:

We must distinguish between two latency types: One is the internal Samplitude latency (object effects, like timestretching, crossfade calculations, plugins + mixer track effects and mixer master effects). The other latency type is the input - output latency. Play a signal in the audio engine of Samplitude and play it out to your monitors.
Unfortunately this isn´t really possible at the moment, but 6.5 will change it.
It should be possible in 6.5, to I/O external signals with nearly zero latency, using the new ASIO driver support.
In 6.5 you can use volume, pan, bus sends and aux sends on those signals, but no (!) internal effects (Plugins, EQ, Comp, Multiband, Dehisser ...).
It will be possible, to send a recorded and with effects processed signal out to external equipment (reverb, comp units) and send it back to a mixer track.
After that stage only internal pan or volume settings affect the returned signal (remember: no internal effects on live signals).

OK, external signals will bypassing the first (internal) latency in 6.5.
The always active internal latency depends on your VIP buffer setting. Lower buffers mean a lower internal latency (=response to faders, mute buttons, EQ tweaks and all the other user operations). Lower buffer settings mean also a higher CPU (=DSP) load. Of course, your CPU must calculate much more tasks (buffers) at the same time.
This means also your buffer setting depends from your system power and from the OS.
Win 2000 and XP allow much lower buffers as Win 98/XP.

WDM, MME or ASIO are different types of driver models and affect the communication from Samplitude to the driver. Sonar uses a special method of communication, the so called kernel streaming. This means, the program bypasses the built in Windows ks mixer and allows lower latency. In theory.
Practical measurements show a higher latency, than other programs (you guess wich) with ASIO driver communication on similar tasks. Seems to be, kernel streaming is only a big a big marketing hype at the moment, only Cakewalk use it.

Plain WDM audiocard drivers (like Motu) need a special communication model for 24 bit support & more. Samplitude supports this model since version 6.04. Cards with MME drivers (RME or Marian) don´t need the activation of WDM in the system setup dialog.

Conclusion: For low latency I/O operations you need Samplitude 6.5 and a low latency card with ASIO drivers (RME Hammerfall, Marian Marc series).
For internal processing (recording, editing, mixing, mastering) with good latency, you need Win 2000/XP, a fast CPU and Samplitude 6.04, if you use a card with WDM only drivers (Motu).

It will need some time, before we see Samplitude or other programs with built in high-quality effects, to act like a realtime mixer. But 6.5 will be a big step in this direction.

[Joe Hannigan]

THANK YOU, Heather, for such a clear explanation of the whole situation. (at least I THINK I got it! <G> )

I'm not as worried about latency (at the moment) due to the way I work, but I sure can see the value of it for others who work in heavy-duty overdub situations.

My concerns are definitely about the ASIO drivers, MOTU interfacing (like the 896 box) and WinXP.

Seems like 6.5 is going to help all of that and more. The only question left is:

WHEN!?!?!?!? <G>

[SoundZiLL]

Heather... I think I'm in love with you http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

No, seriously! You are awesome. You just answered in less than two days, what I couldn't get answered on 3 other boards in over 2 weeks. HATS OFF TO YOU!!!!

With the information that you gave me I was able to lower the latency to a reasonable amount. (which was response to fader movements btw)

My only questions are who's going to distribute 6.5, and WHEN?!?!?!

peace and blessings

[Robert D]

Bravo! Hat's off to you Heather for that concise explaination. I use hardware monitoring, so record latency is not an issue, but I would love to be able to use outboard processors real time as if they were auxed out from an analog desk. That, and PCI buss latency compensation for my TC Powercore DSP card, and I'll be one happy Samp camper. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif
Regards, RD

[stevepow]

So Heather, are you saying the ASIO drivers from MOTU will not give good results? RME will be better? Please clarify.

"For internal processing (recording, editing, mixing, mastering) with good latency, you need Win 2000/XP, a fast CPU and Samplitude 6.04, if you use a card with WDM only drivers (Motu)."

What does this mean? Maybe this made sense to those who don't use a MOTU interface, but it is not clear to me at all what you mean.

[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 08-28-2002).]

[HeatherBiblow]

"So Heather, are you saying the ASIO drivers from MOTU will not give good results? RME will be better? Please clarify."

RMEs Hammerfall series is well known for lowest latencies with ASIO drivers and a moderate CPU load with many tracks (results from busmastering and other tricks).
Motu devices does not reach those ultra low latency levels with ASIO.

Samplitudes 6.0x versions support no ASIO drivers, you can only use MME drivers or (Motus) WDM drivers. In 6.5 it will be possible, to use also ASIO drivers with ultra low I/O latencies instead of WDM or MME.

""For internal processing (recording, editing, mixing, mastering) with good latency, you need Win 2000/XP, a fast CPU and Samplitude 6.04, if you use a card with WDM only drivers (Motu)."

What does this mean? Maybe this made sense to those who don't use a MOTU interface, but it is not clear to me at all what you mean."

You want to use Samplitude 6.0x with a low internal processing latency (quick response to mouse operations - solo, mute, volume)? OK, you need Windows 2000/XP and Samplitude 6.04.
Especially for a Motu interface with WDM drivers (Motu has no MME drivers). In all older Samplitude versions WDM drivers allow only 16 bit playback and record in Windows 2000/XP.

With the new Samplitude 6.5 you can use Motus ASIO drivers with a lower I/O latency instead of Motus WDM drivers. For best ASIO latencies I recommend a RME Hammerfall (DSP).

You want to know, 6.5 when? I don´t no. I´am sure, Apple (Emagic) will not distribute the software. Magix has to find another partner. Soon!

[BrockStapper]

They are indeed distributing as far as I hear. Also, it is supposed to be available to ship Sept. 30th. I'm just going by what Volker and the customer service at emagic have told me about sequoia and samplitude pro...

[Immanuel]

I believe I have zero-latency

I recorded a click track to Samplitude.
I then sent the click track into a Pulsar mixer and back and recorded it as track 2.
Then I played back both tracks, and when I inverted the phase of one of them, my monitors where silent.
I even zoomed all the way in with Samplitude. The clicks where in perfect sample sync http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

Samplitude Studio 6 and Creamware SFP 3.1a

Immanuel

[Robert D]

Heather - I thought that Apple/Emagic were being forced to honor the distribution contract. Do you know otherwise?
Regards, RD

[Immanuel]

yeah right, but how easy is it to find samplitude on the emagic site?

Immanuel

[diminished]

NOW WE KNOW I GUESS.
IT was planned to sell emagic to apple and have the champ SAMPLITUDE to concentrate on,since they know samplitude is the master of the multitracks,some deal was struck i believe.

IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

[Joe Hannigan]

Ok, I THINK I'm getting the point on the latency issue, but let me pose this scenario:

I'm using Windows XP on a VAIO laptop (Athlon XP 1.2 gig Hz) with 6.04. I want to buy the MOTU 896 (24/96) firewire I/O box to do long-from concerts onto HD "live" and then mix it later back at the studio. Each wav file would be about 45-60 minutes in length, no overdubs live, etc, just tracking, with mixing done later, after the fact. (I will also be running a DA-78 along with all this, at least in the beginning, as a "Fail-safe" system in case of crashes, bugs, etc.)

Once I know this works, the MOTU/HD recording combo will hopefully become my preferred method of recording "LIVE" on location for bands, plays, orchestras, cabarets, etc. I doubt "Latency" is an issue in this situation, but I'm concerned about the WDM drivers working with MOTU in the FIRST place.

Anyone with similar experience along these lines?

[diminished]

JOE if i were to record live bands,i mean live concerts cabarettes etc.i wiould never go with a soundcard that depends on computers.
i would defenately go with something like the alesis 24 track hd wich is $1900 and that way i have a guarranteed result.

because in live performances you have only one chance.in the studio unlimited chances.

ofcourse,if anything better i am all for that.but till then i'll wait for the technology for solid stability.