what's (based on your experience) the best Pc Daw

[Tusk]

..what configuration suggest for best solution for Hdisk recording.. to avoid conflict between Mo-Bo and Audiocard.. wich memory.. based on your personal configuration. this may be help for anyone interested in Digital Audio Workstation..
My personal config is:

P4 2,0 Ghz
Mo-bo intel 845 EBGL 2
Memory Kingstone 512 DDR
2 Hd seagate Barracuda 40 Gb
M-audio Audiophile 24/96
1 x 17'' flat screen monitor
Ati radeon 32 mb videocard
...nothing more

Tusk.

[Pretty Pretty Cyanide]

If money is not really a problem then P4.
ASUS 533FSB Intel Chipset.
RME Multiface.
DDR333MHZ 2700
450W case
3x Westerm Digital 120GB with 8MB cache
Matrox Dual monitor support card.

but hence this is the real world but suprisinly I get great results with:

ASUS A7N266-VM
Athlon 1800Xp (not overclocked, not into games that much)
M-Audio Audiophile (sweet)
352MBR DDR266MHZ 2100
Fuji 10GB (OS drive)
WD 100GB 8MB drive cache (audio drive)
Radeon dual monitor support drive.
El cheapo 250W case my friend was about to throw away.

Overall very cheap and suprisingly stable. I would build another one in a snap. The Western Digital was the most expensive part.

[Gabriel Sousa]

A/D - Swissonic or RME or MOTU
Hello, for a long time, i am asking, looking for a better a/d converter. and dont know what to buy.

should i buy the MOTU 2408mk3
or the RME multiface
or the SWISSONIC ad 24 mk2 with rme DIGI9636

you use any of this brands ?

[zeChuck]

aiie
if you want to struggle with your audio system, go for a MOTU unit !
personaly, I spent a lot of time to get info about using a MOTU audio interface like the 2408mk3 but too much people have problem with PC hardware.
Anyway Intel-based systems are the best, no matter what the audio interface you intend to use (avoid VIA chipset!!)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by zeChuck:
aiie
Anyway Intel-based systems are the best, no matter what the audio interface you intend to use (avoid VIA chipset!!)

Not really true, but ok. I have built several Via based audio machines, from the KT133a and KT266 to the newer KT333 and KT400.

[Nick Driver]

Originally posted by zeChuck:
aiie
if you want to struggle with your audio system, go for a MOTU unit !
personaly, I spent a lot of time to get info about using a MOTU audio interface like the 2408mk3 but too much people have problem with PC hardware.
Anyway Intel-based systems are the best, no matter what the audio interface you intend to use (avoid VIA chipset!!)

NOT TRUE about the newest MOTU hardware & drivers!!! Maybe in the past when they first began offering windows pc solutions, but they've certainly got their act together nowadays.

I just installed a brand new MOTU 2408 Mk III into my friend's DAW (a genuine Intel brand mobo, i850 chipset, P4 2.0a GHz Northwood cpu, Windows 2000 Pro) and it works flawlessly, installed perfectly the first try, and performs excellently both as a DAW audio interface, and as a TDIF interface to his Tascam tape machines.

[wolfpuppy]

Not really true, but ok. I have built several Via based audio machines, from the KT133a and KT266 to the newer KT333 and KT400.

Either you haven't done any serious multi-track audio recording or you are just plain lucky. No one that uses PCs in the industry will touch a VIA chipset motherboard and for good reason.

I've been building computers professionally for 8 years. In the last 3 years I've dived into digital audio and digital video world. It's my business to keep on top of computer components (literally). VIA has failed dismally. There have been memory compatibility issues above and beyond any of the other chipsets, dropped frames (in video editing), poor pci performance, and so on. The only light from VIA is the KT400 chipset since it was build practically from scratch. It is able to function quite well under the stresses I've put it under, but because of VIA's past I still will not build a system with this chipset.

Simple advice for the computer part:
Pentium CPUs - Intel chipset motherboards, always!
Athlon CPUs - nVidia (and to a lesser extent SiS) chipset motherboards.
And don't forget NAME BRAND MEMORY!

[strunz0]

I am going to have to agree with the statements made about MOTU, especially in reference to PC`s. Their driver support is terrible. their customer service number is a single lined telephone that is busy if u call while they are speaking to someone else. They put out products that offer way too much for the price, and it is clear where they cut the corners to make profit...quality.

Not to mention that is safe to say that any company that is designing so many audio interfaces, simultaneously is just putting out **** . Most quality manufactureers tend to create a small product line based around stability, sound quality, and usefuleness, but not MOTU. Look at company like Apogee. they have a limited selection of products, all of which are high quality.

The other thing is I agree with the Via chipset issue. If you are doing 8 tracks or recording your buddies band, cool. But I have bad luck with the via chipset when doing large mix sessions of 24 or more tracks in Nuendo, as well as Logic.

And you will hate me for this, but lets be honest. "pros" tend to use Macs for audio. I have worked in studios all throughout new york and boston, and did not see one PC. I love pcs, and use em in my home studio, but when it comes to stability, and no bull****, mac is the way to go.

[Emile]

I have a Via kt133 pc and a Motu 1224 and they've worked fine for 2 years now.
Also,I would like to mention that Motu gear sounds good...

[zeChuck]

(absolutely agree with you wolfpuppy)
Yes, your audio system can run flawlessly with VIA chipset. Yes, Mac-oriented gears like MOTU can work fine with some PC hardware.
BUT as you can see (or go to dedicated forums..) these are recurent and known problems. These are not isolate cases(...) What do you want more ?!
A cheap athlon with a non-intel chipset is too risky for making sound seriously. An audio interface such as MOTU attracted me a lot btw, but Im sure not to get any compatibility problem with something else such as RME or Creamware.

[Polaris]

Originally posted by wolfpuppy:
Either you haven't done any serious multi-track audio recording or you are just plain lucky. No one that uses PCs in the industry will touch a VIA chipset motherboard and for good reason.

I've been building computers professionally for 8 years. In the last 3 years I've dived into digital audio and digital video world. It's my business to keep on top of computer components (literally). VIA has failed dismally. There have been memory compatibility issues above and beyond any of the other chipsets, dropped frames (in video editing), poor pci performance, and so on. The only light from VIA is the KT400 chipset since it was build practically from scratch. It is able to function quite well under the stresses I've put it under, but because of VIA's past I still will not build a system with this chipset.

Simple advice for the computer part:
Pentium CPUs - Intel chipset motherboards, always!
Athlon CPUs - nVidia (and to a lesser extent SiS) chipset motherboards.
And don't forget NAME BRAND MEMORY!

Hey man, thanks for sounding condescending and talking to me like a 4 year old.

I have been building computers for 5 years now, and audio for 3 and video for 3.

If you can read, check out the Digidesign Compatibility charts. They recommend a Via chipset.
http://www.digidesign.com/compato/maindigi001win.cfm

Also check out Echo's compatibility charts. They also say Via would work fine.
http://www.echoaudio.com/Support/PC/AMD.php

I am not incredibly lucky. I just know how to build a computer for audio.

When one of the machines I build for audio fail using a Via chipset, I'll let you know.

Unless I happen to come across a Via chipset from 1995, I should be ok.


[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited 04-18-2003).]

[trock]

"but lets be honest. "pros" tend to use Macs for audio...I love pcs, and use em in my home studio, but when it comes to stability, and no bull****, mac is the way to go."

"A cheap athlon with a non-intel chipset is too risky for making sound seriously."

When you start posting in a new forum you might want to check whhat's already been thoroughly covered in that forum before posting statements that have been disproven over and over at that forum.

trock

[Polaris]

Originally posted by trock:
"but lets be honest. "pros" tend to use Macs for audio...I love pcs, and use em in my home studio, but when it comes to stability, and no bull****, mac is the way to go."

"A cheap athlon with a non-intel chipset is too risky for making sound seriously."

When you start posting in a new forum you might want to check whhat's already been thoroughly covered in that forum before posting statements that have been disproven over and over at that forum.

trock

I agree Trock. Guys working at B96 (a Chicago radio station) making 6 figures off their music get by just fine with Athlons and Via chipsets. I know this for a fact.

Macs aren't better, they're just different. And Intel chipsets are far from being the be-all, end-all audio solution.

[wolfpuppy]

Polaris, your first post was a short, two sentence recommendation that dismissed years of known problems in digital audio and video production with the VIA chipset. If you had been more thorough (as in your second post) I would not have been so condesending, but I would still disagree.

The Digidesign link doesn't seem to work, but the Echo one did, and made me realise something - that 9 out of 10 problems I've had with VIA have been with their Pentium systems (check the bottom half of the Echo page to see why). I also didn't start using AMD systems until much later, but since VIA uses the same Southbridge for Intel or AMD based systems the problems that have been southbrige-based affect both anyway.

I can build VIA based systems for audio as well, and I have, and it has taken me a great deal of time on each and every one to get it to be in stable audio or video production. As it stands now I will only troubleshoot these systems (since we charge by the hour), but I will not build one and sell it, not until VIA proves itself.

Don't forget how Tusk started this thread: "...what confguration suggest for best solution for Hdisk recording...". Even though we might disagree about VIA can you honestly say that it is the best?

All the problems that plague VIA can be fixed by a competent person. Proper 4in1s (which does not always mean the latest), proper BIOS (ditto), PCI latency patch, etc. But why bother when for a few bucks more you can have far less problems by purchasing an Intel based chipset motherboard, or nVidia based chipset motherboard. (Note that I said less problems, not zero.)


Link (http://pcbuyersguide.com/hardware/motherboards/VIA-Problems.html) to overview of VIA problems
Link (http://www.usbman.com/Guides/VIA%20Tips%20and%20Tricks.htm) to USB problem and fixes
Link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/23502.html) to overview of PCI Latency problem
Link (http://www.tecchannel.de/hardware/817/index.html) to very detailed study of PCI Latency problem

[Polaris]

Originally posted by wolfpuppy:

Don't forget how Tusk started this thread: "...what confguration suggest for best solution for Hdisk recording...". Even though we might disagree about VIA can you honestly say that it is the best?.......

.......All the problems that plague VIA can be fixed by a competent person.


First link talks about mostly older chipsets, with the exception of the KT266A, still an older design.

The second link doesn't work.

the third link talks about RAID, which in my opinion is not appropriate for audio use, unless you're talking serial.

The Digidesign material is this:

Maximum Performance Guidelines
To provide full 32-track, 24-bit performance on Pro Tools LE with high edit densities and the maximum number of Plug-Ins follow these guidelines:

Intel Pentium 4 or Xeon with Intel 845, Intel 850 or Intel 860 chipset, Single Processor
AMD Athlon XP or Thunderbird with pure VIA chipset, Single Processor
Performance and the number of Plug-Ins will vary from PC to PC; however, faster processor speeds produce better results
Total System RAM: 384 MB or higher
File System (all drives): FAT32 or NTFS
Also note that we have seen better performance on computers that have less components attached and non-custom versions of the BIOS or Windows XP

In the case of Echo and Digidesign, do I think that Via chipsets, with AMD are the best way to go? Yes. I do. So do a lot of other people. Go visit the DUC at Digi and see for yourself.

You say that a Via-based computer should be built by a competent person? Of course, how else should any computer be built?

I will agree with you on one thing, and one thing only: When I say Via chipsets are good, I mean Via for AMD, definitely not P4's.

[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited 04-18-2003).]

[Cranky]

Guys, guys, guys. We all know that there are NO ABSOLUTES. The integration of so many different components always makes it a challenge for all these things to work in harmony. If it isn't software, it's a chipset or a driver issue. Or ACPI, or PCI bus problems or IRQ sharing or whatever.
The truth is that anything can and does work.

I've had two systems with VIA chipsets. A P3 and now an Athlon XP 1800. I have not had any problems with either. My first system had the Apollo Pro chipset and now I have a KT266A chipset. I had a delta 66 in my newer system for almost a year and never had a problem. I recently replaced the Delta with a Q10 and although I didn't have any problems with it either, the PCI bus reading included in the Q10 panel was reading 48% so I decided to apply George Breese's PCI Latency Patch which brought my reading up to 100%. I have posted several things about how well my system has been working. It sure seems to be outperforming faster P4's. here's the link to the thread: http://www.audioforums.com/forums/Forum4/HTML/004094.html

I've read a lot of good things about Nvidia chipsets for Athlon processors and I think that just to be safe that would probably be a good choice.

I don't know where some people get the idea that if you're doing "serious" audio Pentium is the way to go. Also, the MAC thing is like the Yamaha NS10 thing. People got used to using it and it became the standard. It doesn't mean that it's better (we all know that there are a lot better monitors than NS10'S, but if you go to any major studio, what are you going to see? NS10's.

Once people get used to using something that works well they stick with it even if there's better stuff out there. There's comfort in familiarity.

I think technology has gotten to a point where you can do "serious" recording on just about any platform out there including software and hardware.

The truth is that most people get hung up on gear instead of concentrating on good songwriting or musicianship. What good is the latest MAC or PC if your songs suck?

[This message has been edited by Cranky (edited 04-18-2003).]

[trock]

Came across this on another forum today (and it completely matches my own experience):

" btw, it really is amazing how much better Athlons seem to perform for audio plugins...I was able to run 13 LinMBs on my XT2000 cpu which runs on only 1666MHz as opposed to the 9 that a P4 2,4 can do.."

And re the Mac, somewhere else on this forum is the link to that site showing that the fastest Macs are still 1/2 the speed of the fastest PCs. We used to have both Macs and PCs but we got fed up with the Macs crashing so much as well as other limitations we ran into that the PCs don't have so we got rid of them.

trock

[Polaris]

Originally posted by wolfpuppy:
Polaris, your first post was a short, two sentence recommendation that dismissed years of known problems in digital audio and video production with the VIA chipset.


My first post was a short, two sentence response to a short, two sentence blanket statement. Read the post above it where it says "Avoid VIA chipsets!!!" or whatever.


[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited 04-18-2003).]

[Sugarbaker]

Originally posted by trock:
\And re the Mac, somewhere else on this forum is the link to that site showing that the fastest Macs are still 1/2 the speed of the fastest PCs. We used to have both Macs and PCs but we got fed up with the Macs crashing so much as well as other limitations we ran into that the PCs don't have so we got rid of them.

trock

it's very hard to compare speeds of Macs to PC's. They are both good. OS9x did crash more than any PC I've ever had, but I've recently been using OS X doing intense, multi-program operations and it is as stable as a rock. You should check it out. I also really like MOTU I/O gear, and it tends to work better on MAC... I am waiting to try DP4 on OS X. Any day now. Just know that I like PC's too, run several for my sequencing setup. Later

Stephen

[Polaris]

I honestly really like OSX, it's a great OS. I just wish Apple would let me buy parts separately, so I can build my own Mac, and upgrade the Mobo and chip as needed.

Buying a new $2000 computer every 2-3 years is bull****.

Macs are slower, even when you factor in the difference between a RISC chip and the x86 chips.

But when playing with my friend's PTLE rig with a Mac G4 tower, it did the job, and didn't seem annoyingly slow.

Hopefully Macs will get a much needed boost in speed when the PPC 970 chips from IBM come out in the fall.

[wolfpuppy]

All right. Both Polaris and myself are deeply entrenched on opposing sides and we will not budge anytime soon. Although this debate is continuing ad nauseam I will continue it just a little bit longer. After all debate is healthy.

Point: The pci latency problem of VIA affected all chipsets up to the KT333. True there is both George Breese's Patch and the official one from VIA, but the problem is at the hardware level and is truely only fixed in the KT400. The software patch improves things emensly but it still does not bring the PCI performance level up to par with either Intel's, nVidia's, or even SiS's.

Point: Although the pci problem was diagnosed during IDE RAID, and SCSI tests the problems does affect Sound Card issues. After all the sound card does plug into the pci slot. The techchannel article mentions how certain sound card issues disappeared after the patch was installed. I have also had a great deal of success in dealing with sound card issues after applying the patch. (Of course for those of us that that do any video work with uncompressed video we need RAID or SCSI or both. The latency problem, even patched, becomes more of an issue here.)

Point: USB support has sucked at least up until the KT266. The only way to resolve this was by users either buying a seperate USB card or investing in an external powered USB hub (the latter is the solution mentioned on VIA's website). Unless you rely on several pieces of equipment that use USB then in all likelihood you have been spared these problems.

I leave you with a question: out of all the places that build PC for audio production how many use motherboards with the VIA chipset? Personally I haven't found any. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough. Please correct me (and I'm not being sarcastic). I would be curious to see what chipset they would be using. If any company does so I couldn't see it being anything other than the KT400.

I won't say much about Macs because that can open up a whole other debate (as I'm sure it's done several times already). The one thing I do like about them is the ability to use all this great software and professional audio and video equipment on UNIX (which is what OSX really is). This is where you can truely see UNIX and Windows going head to head at the very least in terms of stability.

[This message has been edited by wolfpuppy (edited 04-21-2003).]

[bubba freaktree]

i imitated trock's setup, and I am getting great results.

trock's core elements:
ecs-k7s5a mobo
crucial pc-2100 ddr ram (1 gig)
athlon xp 2400 processor
windows xp (home version i believe)
matrox g450 video card

my core elements:
ecs-k7s51 pro mobo
crucial pc-2100 ddr ram (1 gig)
athlon xp 2400 processor
windows 2000 professional service pack 3
matrox g450 video card

we both get very high track counts, very high plugin counts, excellent pci card compatibility, excellent stability.

i built my core system, including the os, for under $800. tough to beat!

[hooter]

wolfpuppy
Studiogem makes an audio computer with a VIA
chipset.I have one with Asus A7V133-C mobo
which has VIA K133.It works but dont look to studiogem for support cause it is lame at best.

[br0d]

You know, I was going to rant about MOTU, but instead, all I will say is that before you buy ANYTHING this company has produced, PLEASE do your research. Extensively.

This reply is far more efficient, less bitter, and will be far more convincing.

[kdott]

Originally posted by bubba freaktree:
i imitated trock's setup, and I am getting great results.

trock's core elements:
ecs-k7s5a mobo
crucial pc-2100 ddr ram (1 gig)
athlon xp 2400 processor
windows xp (home version i believe)
matrox g450 video card

my core elements:
ecs-k7s51 pro mobo
crucial pc-2100 ddr ram (1 gig)
athlon xp 2400 processor
windows 2000 professional service pack 3
matrox g450 video card

we both get very high track counts, very high plugin counts, excellent pci card compatibility, excellent stability.

i built my core system, including the os, for under $800. tough to beat!



Hello all. I'm new to this forum and new to custom-built PCs. After reading many posts & other literature, it seems that the best way to go is to build your own (or have one built).

I've been using Pentiums for home computing & audio. 2 years ago made the mistake of buying a 1.5 GHz Compaq P4, XP, no idea what the mobo is. Have had countless problems with sound cards not working (Delta 1010 and Gina 20) consistently & can't imagine what life would be like w/a stable PC.

I need to know how easy/hard it is build one of the above set-ups. I'm intrigued by the use of the Athlon & its frequent claims of higher track/plug-in counts over the PC. I'll read more posts re: Athlon vs. Pentium but for now would like to know ins & outs of buying parts, building and/or having someone else do it.

$800 for a stable set up sounds amazing!

Thanks

kdott



[This message has been edited by kdott (edited 05-01-2003).]