To Gilad, What Are The Poor 001 Users To Do?

[William.E.Lemuel]

This issue about the TC/Powercore DSP cards, sounds like the proverbial,"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Why does this have to be so? Sure, I fully realize that if I can only afford to buy a Buick Century, I can't take that same amount of money to a Rolls Royce dealership and come out with a car. However, in the world of digital recording where what you buy this year, is a dino by next, don't you think you should also be looking out for the little guy. It shouldn't be an unobtainable dream for a 001 user like myself, with a nice rack of plug-ins, to be able to use them. Have you seen the price of a gallon of gas lately? I said that to bring home the fact that as things get tighter,(as they most certainly will) it's going to be a luxury for many to even afford the smallest DAW situation. With that truth in mind, wouldn't it be smart to lean towards the little guys. Help us out.

[ThunderRoadPost]

The following is meant to be somewhat humorous. Please take it in that vein.

<sarcasm>

"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer."

Yeah, it's all about class warfare. That's it. If only there were a government agency which would dole out DAWs to those who cannot save enough money to purchase them. That would solve all the problems.

However, in the world of digital recording where what you buy this year, is a dino by next

Really? My four-year-old Pro Tools TDM system is working great for me and the bands which come to me for mixing/mastering. Maybe I'm missing something. Waves makes plug-ins that I am unable to use, because my little old pre-Mix TDM system doesn't have the DSP to run them. Until the time when I can afford to upgrade my system I am unable to run them (even though they came in the bundle that I own). That's just the way it is. And that's just the way it will always be.

Have you seen the price of a gallon of gas lately?

Can anyone say "non-sequitur"? I suppose it is OPEC's fault that Waves won't support a proprietary DSP card which has not yet even been given to them for testing. Or maybe it's a vast right-wing conspiracy! Or maybe it's because Waves is an Israeli company, and OPEC is Arab!!! OPEC is artificially driving up the price of a gallon of gas so that Waves doesn't develop plug-ins for a non-working, proprietary DSP card!!! Someone call the UN!!!

Oh, by the way, as high as US gas prices are right now, they are still a fraction of what the rest of the world has been paying for years. They still manage to buy plug-ins in other countries.

</sarcasm>

Perhaps the problems that you, the little guy, face is also being faced by the mean old big guys (and, chances are, the mean old big guy faces them on a much larger scale than you or I could ever conceive).

When times are as tight as you contest they are there just aren't dollars enough to throw into every new proprietary system that comes out. To waste money on development for what will likely be a marginal system at best (and one which will only for a very short amount of time offer any advances beyond that which CPUs currently offer), would be foolhardy, at best.

The reasons plug-ins cost what they do are numerous and varied, but chief among them are development costs and software piracy. It's an economy of scale. The first copy of that plug-in costs a fortune to make, and every copy thereafter costs fractions of pennies, but the money that Waves spent must be regained by spreading the cost of that first copy over the entire population of copies, and more money must be earned to foster new development, say for new proprietary DSP cards, should they ever come into widespread use (which is highly unlikely).

And the reasons that plug-ins require as much DSP or CPU as they do are numerous and varied, as well, but you can narrow it down pretty well to the fact that people want the most powerful plug-ins, with the best sound possible. This eats up DSP/CPU like there's no tomorrow.

I feel your pain, but you cannot expect a corporation to take it on the chin just because you don't want to.

[William.E.Lemuel]

Yea ThunderRoadPost, I'm not as dumb as you make it seem. I mean I guess in ways when it comes to third party development knowledge, I am dumb. However, the fact still remains that I and most of the people like me feel that there is a solution. Sure, I can just imagine that the cost for development is high, but where does the dictatorship stop. Oh excuse me, that's another dumb question. I love my 001 and I'm sure I'll be using it for years, but you know what I'm talking about when I say new this year, a dino the next referring to some things not all. If the statement weren't true then my Mac G4 400 would still be worth what it was when I got it just a little over a year ago, but we both know it's not. And if I were a betting man, I'd bet you've made that same exact statement a time or two yourself. We understand that no one is in business to give anything away, but still we're entitled to enough respect to be taken seriously, and not constantly ignored, or put off or talked down to, because we're trying to get just a little more bang for the buck. In fact, I know for a fact that's what the big guys(who have so many more headaches than us little guys could ever imagine)do. They haggle just like us little guys. They haggle for the best price they can get on everything from, development, to marketing, to distribution. So why are you guys who've semi- attained always talking to us like we're stupid, because we're haggling. Sure, while reading these post such as the one that got me over here in the first place; you knowledgeable guys say a lot of things that make sense. But as soon as I start to lean to your way of thinking; I read a post by someone on our side that makes just as much sense. I appreciate the fact that you did cushion your statements up front to say that it's just a discussion your way of thinking verses mine. I do learn a lot from people like you, I mean the thought put into your reply is evident to one reading it. But think about this. Why did they even let us (thelittle guy) in first place? One guy said it was a marketing stategy to get us in, then start us drueling over the real deal until we do all sorts of crazy things to try to obtain the TDM life. However, I have on the other hand, another theory. All these companies, Digidesign, Waves,etc who use to only sell to the big boys, starting looking at a different demographic, the average consumer, figuring that there are more of us than there are of them. It's all about reaching the masse's dollars; which may be initially smaller, but when added all up, comes to a nice bottom line.

[bcwdwks]

Hi William:
Waves or TC or any other company doesn't owe you or me anything other than hardware/software that works as advertised (after we purchase it)and good support when it doesn't. What are you complaining about? Just make your music. No one is holding you back. Before I had the daw I had an adat. Before that, a fostex a8. Before that, a yamaha 4 track. I made music on all of them.

<"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.">

What?

<It shouldn't be an unobtainable dream for a 001 user like myself, with a nice rack of plug-ins, to be able to use them.>

It just amazes me that someone with a "Digi 001 and a nice rack of plug-ins" can still find something to complain about. Hey, I don't have any plug-ins and you have a nice rack of them. So to me YOU are ONE OF THE RICH and YOU OWE ME DUDE! har har. It's all relative. On one hand you complain that technology is advancing so fast that your stuff becomes a dino within 12 months. On the other hand you complain that technology isn't advancing quickly enough for you to be able to run a **** load of plug-ins at one time. Technology is where it is and these companies make what they make. Then it's up to us to make the decision as to whether or not to use there product. What is it that you want? Do you want Waves to make plug-ins that use less cpu? If they did the plugs probably would not sound as nice and then you wouldn't want them anymore. Technology is making huge advances every day. Look at what you do have, make music and be patient.
peace,
Bruce

[William.E.Lemuel]

bcwdwks, I am making music, and I plan on continuing regardless of wether or not Digi and Waves decide to respond to not just me, but thousands like me, who think there is a solution. Why are people like you always defending these guy as opposed to helping push them. I'm sorry if you think I'm ungreatful because I'm trying to get to the next level, but hey, that's how improvements are made. No, I know " We've got the horse and buggy, why are you trying to get them to make something like a car, just be satified with this horse and buggy.

[bcwdwks]

William:

<bcwdwks, I am making music, and I plan on continuing regardless of wether or not Digi and Waves decide to respond to not just me, but thousands like me, who think there is a
solution.>

A solution to what? As far as I can tell there aren't a lot of problems that there isn't already a solution for. What's your problem?

<Why are people like you always defending these guy as opposed to helping push them.>

Why are people like you never satisfied, yet you act like it's up to someone else to satisfy you. You act like they owe you something. What do you mean "defending"? Does somebody need defending? I don't think so. I'm not defending anybody but you act as if no one is doing anything, no advancements are being made and that "they" should be doing what you tell them to do. Is what you need not there? If it isn't, it soon will be. Jeeze man, you're recording, editing, mastering music on a freekin' computer! Somebody must be doing something out there and a lot of it helps YOU! Hey, I love progress and there's tons of it being made. That's part of what I'm saying here. Of course there's nothing wrong with a nice horse 'n buggy ride.
Gotta go.
BC

[This message has been edited by bcwdwks (edited 05-10-2001).]

[William.E.Lemuel]

bcwdwks, hey man I don't have any enemies out there, and I don't want to start with you so if it makes you happy you win, or let's just agree to disagree. At any rate, I still think I have a valid point, and what you call complaining, I call asking, with reason. So as I said see ya later, have a nice day.

[bcwdwks]

William:
I'm definitely NOT your enemy. I've asked you a couple of times, what's your point, what's your problem, what are you complaining about? You never answer that question. If you would, maybe I or someone else could suggest something that would help you. This isn't a fight. I'm responding to your posts and asking you questions. But if you can't take the heat............
peace.......for real!
BC

[William.E.Lemuel]

bcwdwks, what I'm talking about is the fact that there is a possibility that we the 001 users could have a chance to use more plug-ins at once, as opposed to having to go through all the procedures we have to. I talked to a tech at Universal Audio about the powered plug-ins. I asked him when they would support the Rtas stuff; to which he responded, as soon as Digi supports us. By the way, why does it have to even be any heat; because we're asking Digi to support the third party developers? We know that we're fighting a giant who pretty much does what he wants to; but nothing beats a failure but a try. At any rate I'm not afraid of you, besides that I don't know you from Adam. However, I just hate it when guys get on here and call each other names, talk about and try to otherwise call someone stupid because they may have a different opinion.

Anyway, like I said when I first started this thread," Is there any help out there for us?" Hey we spend money too..

[bcwdwks]

Hi William:
I'm glad that you didn't leave. Two pionts. First, the heat I was referring to was the fact that it seemed like you were giving up on our discussion. Second, there's no reason to be afraid of me! I didn't say anything that should scare you. We're just talking and I think I'm starting to uderstand your point. It is the "little us vs the big them" mentality that I don't agree with. If what you are saying is that Digidesigns caters to and gives better support to thier full blown Pro Tools system vs. there Digi 001 then I agree with you 100%. A friend of mine also bought the Digi 001. He liked being able to say "yea, I use Pro Tools" and sound like one of the "big guys". Now he regrets that decision. Before I bought my system I did a lot of research and it didn't take much to see that the support for the Digi 001 wasn't very strong, especially for pc. But one of the main reasons I looked eleswhere was because of the types of plug-ins you had to use. RTAS and Audio Suite. Expensive and not as much selection as in the VST and Direct X world. I hear that those Bomb Factory plugs are real nice but I can't use them. I went with Samplitude 24/96 which uses Direct X. So should I be pissed off at Bomb Factory and create this "little me against the big Bomb Factory" scenario? No. It was a decision I made. I'm not trying to make you mad or to put you down but that information was out there and you chose the digi and I think that it's unfair for you to now blame them for not having what you need. That's all I'm saying to you and it's only my opinion. As for a solution (there's always a solution), why don't you sell the digi and go with something else? That's what my friend is doing. Or can you up grade your computer? Personally I would go with door number one. Look, William, I have discussions like this all of the time with my friends and we all still like each other very much. At the same time though, I guess we all go about things in our on way and I wish you luck! Just remember, no one is standing in your way and if there is, just go around them. Friends?
PEACE
BC

[William.E.Lemuel]

bwcdwks, I'm glad we're friends, but I'm afraid that what I'm going to tell you now might make you call me a complainer even that much more. I do have the Bomb Factory, as well as Waves 3.0, Grm, and more all adding up to about $4000,00 plus in plug-ins that I'm still learning how to use. I love the 001 and I plan on keeping it because it is Pro Tools, and what I'm selling at my price of $50.00 per hour here in Houston; is the ability to create a master that one can take anywhere in the country. I do that because what little research I've done tells me that Pro Tools is the undisputed industry standard in the world of digital audio. It also enabled me to get a part time job at times in a full blown TDM studio. This because the TDM system's software is almost exactly like the 001's. I went in there, saw it, and started doing all sorts of things that impressed the owner enough that he offered me a position in the new studio he's completing.

All I'm saying is that there's at least a $7000,00 price gap between 001, and even the lowest priced TDM system. So when guys say stuff like,"Well, just get a TDM system," it's really not that simple. So with that said, I hope that someday soon I will be able to use more than one Waves Renaissance Reverb before I'm getting the dreaded " You're running out of CPU power, unplug some plug-ins" message. I don't know, but it seems to me that somewhere in that $7000,00 chasm, they can do somewthing to help us out. I do a lot of work, and I do(even if I do say so myself) good work, at least as far as my writing and performance of it; of course being a musician who fell in love with the recording thing kinda late in life, the engineering aspect leaves some things to be desired. However, I am learning and getting better at it. Hey, I might send you an mp3 of my stuff so that you can hear my work. I don't know if you'd necessarily go for for it because it's contempory gospel. I'm a minister of the gospel, and when I got saved I made a vow to the Lord that I'd only use my talent for Him.

At any rate, I just like you to know that I'm not a complainer just for complaining's sake. This because I'm a person full of greatfulness, just because of where I've been and where the Lord's allowed to get back to. However, the bible tells me that,"We have not because we ask not" http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif So that won't be able to be said of me. So I'll see ya later my friend, and hope to hear from you soon.

[William.E.Lemuel]

bwcdwks, I was going to send you an mp3 but you don't don't have you e-mail address posted.

[bcwdwks]

Hi William:
OK. Try again. I would like to hear your stuff. Gospel is fine in my book!
Hey William, like I said earlyer, I don't have any plug-ins yet except for what came with Samplitude and Acid pro 2.0. However I have been checking out LOTS of demo's. I realy like the Waves stuff but I'm not going to go with them just because they're so hard on cpu power. IMHO the Sonic Timeworks plugs were by far the best in terms of sound quality and cpu usage. Have you tried them? Also, the Ultrafunk plug-ins sound great, are cheap (200.00 for the bundle) and are real easy on cpu. You can also buy plugs from both of these companies separately. I'll most likely go for the Ultrafunk bundle and the Sonic Timeworks 4080 reverb to start. Anyway, I'm looking forward to hear your stuff.
Take Care,
BC
Hey William, I posted the above and then remembered that you can't use those plug-ins. Sorry about that. Hey, what about using out board gear? Maybe just an out board reverb or two. Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by bcwdwks (edited 05-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by bcwdwks (edited 05-11-2001).]

[guitarjeff]

William,

The Digi-001's limitations can make you a better and more crafty engineer. Try Audiosuite-ing the renaissance reverb and save a backup of the original track. And insert it on a new track adjust the volumes of the 2 to add or remove "wetness". Or Open a new project with a rough mix of every track but the reverbed tracks, insert them seperately, and adjust the verb until you like it, then audiosuite it at that level to the tracks you want it on in the main mix. That frees up CPU Power for something else. That is how we overcome the 24 track limit also, we will do say 2 sets of 20 background vocal tracks in 2 new projects with a rough mix on tracks 1 and 2. Mix and Bounce to disk each to a mono file and then insert them in to the main project as BGV L and BGV R.

You are limited by the amount of money you spent on your rig. Just like in the pre-DAW days where the person who bought the 24 track studio was more limited than the one who bought the 64 track studio. That's life!! Deal with it. you just have to be a little craftier to make it work for you. Then when you make some money engineering, maybe you can buy the TDM system. That is the American way. You get what you pay for. No one deserves a free ride. Digi doesn't owe anyone anything except a product that works like it is supposed to.

Faster CPU's may well make the DSP/TDM thing obsolete anyway. Just think of how many RRverb's you could run on a P5 50000. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

Yes, Digi is somewhat arrogant in their approach, but If you want to use PT, you have to play by their rules or get something else. Plain and simple.

Jeff Prentice

[jcg]

William,

I don't really want to pick a fight with you or anything, but I think some of the points you raise in this thread are pretty questionable:

1) Given the $7000 price spread (your number) between Digi001 and TDM systems, why would Digidesign have any interest in making the 001 (which they probably lose money on) more competitive with the TDM systems that are their bread and butter? They've already deliberately crippled some of the sync features on the 001 to placate ProTools users who were pissed off when Digi introduced the Digi001 at such a low price point and with (apparently) features close to the lower end TDM systems.

2) The points you raise about "next year's dino" are valid but, let's face it, Digi has one of the worst reputations for this kind of thing - they have repeatedly introduced system upgrades that were both expensive and incompatible with their previous products. If you want to buy gear with a future, the bottom line is Caveat Emptor. Digi's core market is not "little guys" who have to carve their studio finances out of their budget for gasoline, it is professionals, for whom a ProTools system is a capital expenditure which will be written off against the business. If you want to deal with a company that "owes" you some respect, find one who's core market is semi-pro and that will see you as part of their core customer demographic when you make feature requests, etc. Hint: this is not Digidesign...

3) Lastly, although I can't really call myself a Pro, I've been around the block a few times and learned a few lessons. I don't think anyone, pro or otherwise, looks down on someone who just wants the best price for their gear. What does get tiring is people who want to spend "under $1000" on some piece of gear so they can "sound like the Beatles" ("hey - the Beatles used four track tape, my SoundBastard should make my stuff sound better than Sgt. Pepper!") No matter what you pay for it, gear is just a tool. I've met guys who could make things sound awesome on a PortaStudio and others who can make a Neve board and 2 inch tape sound worse than a ghetto blaster. If you are lacking in skills, 20 additional plugins running on a PowerCore is not going to help. If you are skilled (and the gear is at least decent and working properly), you'll be able to figure out how to get good sound with or without the extra 20 plugins. To use your car analogy, even if you can afford the Rolls, owning it isn't going to make you a better driver than you were in your Buick Century...

4) As for Digi's support of its 001 customers, try looking up some AudioMedia (I think that's the right brand name for the card) owners and you'll see that its Deja Vu all over again. Digidesign only entered the "semi-pro" market with 001 and ProTools LE to counter competitors like MOTU, Soundscape, Emu, etc. that were starting to nibble at the low end of the "pro" market from a base in this "semi-pro" segment. It's a standard case of extending a known brand into a new market or market segment. If you got "sucked in" by the Digi brand and thought you were getting something that approaches a TDM system for under $2000 (or a system that could grow into something like this), you've been had, plain and simple. Digi has no compelling reason to give you capabilities that compete (or come close to competing) with TDM - why would anyone buy TDM for another $7000 if they can get the same results with a 001 and Powercore? Complain all you want, but Digi already has your money...

My $0.02 (Canadian),
John