question about preamps

[banjoal]

I have a Mackie 1202- vlzpro I`m using sonar and an adiophile 2496.I`m pretty new to this and I`m finding that even with the sonar`s effects I can`t seem to get my vocals very full or warm (I don`t know just something missing).Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.Also I read about people using compressors and limiters when recording vocals, does anyone know where I can find a good article on what these are about thanks Al

[Robert D]

Pssst...you forgot to mention what mic you're using. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/wink.gif

[bryceyaworsky]

You can't overlook singing either... Maybe the singer isn't relaxed enough, and as a result the vocals are "tight" or "thin".

[banjoal]

Right sorry, the mike is an akg c-3000b(not to be confused with the earlier c3000)
Actualy I should have hit the search button before I asked.This has been covered extensively.The problem is that one person will say spend your money on a mic while another insists a preamp would be the way to go.Still any input would be appreciated. thanks again

[bombastique]

first, i think the mic itself is pretty 'non-warm' and so are the mackie preamps. compression will help make it 'full' and possibly some eq will bring out the 'warmth'. doubling the vocals can help, too, as well as proper use of reverb and other fx.

the reason one person will recommend one thing and another person something else is that there are several ways to 'fix' any given problem - that's the beauty of audio. there's no rules, as long as it sounds good. someone may say get a tube preamp to warm up the mic, someone else may say get a microphone that compliments your voice more - someone else may say work with what you have and experiment until you come up with something that works. i'm almost always for trying to use the tools you have, rather than getting something new. most people don't use half of what they already have and think the solution is that next piece of gear...

[Enlightend]

How does a tube warm up a signal?

[Robert D]

They have little heaters in them. No, really, they do.
Ok, this is a deep and thorny subject, particularly when talking about inexpensive tube pre's with starved plate voltage designs, but here's the short answer. Tubes have certain charachteristics that, when driven past the linear portion of their gain curve, provides a combination of plate saturation (think compression), and soft distortion. The result is a coloration that many find pleasing, somewhat similar to the effect of tape saturation. Others find it simply annoying, robbing the signal of clarity and transparancy. I find it best to have both available, as some tracks need a little charachter added, and some need to be clear. A high quality, high plate voltage tube pre can do both, but they are expensive.
Hope that helps a little. RD

[Robert D]

Oh, a couple of particularly warm devices I've added to my little project studio lately are a Rode NTK tube microphone, and a Focusrite TrakMaster channelstrip. The Focusrite is a discrete transistor design, but it is very warm, especially when using it's opto compressor. A much less expensive, and supprisingly warm mic is the Oktava Mk319. It's the only mic I know of in the budget catagory that doesn't have that upper mid bump that everyone puts in, trying to make their $200 mic sound like a U87. Most of them only succeed in making it sound brittle and hyped.
RD

[This message has been edited by Robert D (edited 12-11-2002).]

[Middleman]

Even the low end pre amps will give you a warmer sound than the Mackies. They are very sterile sounding to my ear. Here is a list of some that I have used that will warm it up a bit.

Audio buddy
DMP3
VTB1 Studio Project

These will push more of the frequency range of the mic to your tracks. You can still line these through the Mackie if necessary but I would go straight in.

[Enlightend]

I read an article that was arguing that high-end preamps, like Grace, Summit Audio etc are worth the money because they focus the audio in a smaller point, making it easier to pan and give everything its own space; as opposed to mushing everthing, something like this.

What say ye? Lots of people are speaking highly of the low-end preamps listed above. Is it true that the higher-end brings these benefits; or should we ask ourselves who wrote the article?

[donsaudio]

Enlightened,
I think the end result here is budget. The higher end preamps I've heard in my travels are well worth the money IMO. With so many things to invest in at one time most of us can't afford to go high end right off the bat. Atleast I can't anyway. But dambed I sure wish I could---wouldn't make my wife very happy though :-)

I'll chime in on the trakmaster as well. I think it is a very resonable unit for the price. It may not be "high end" but I am finally able to get decent results from a budget mic pre.
Regards,
Don

[GZsound]

I get the impression from your name you are a bluegrass or dixieland player. I specialize in bluegrass music and a couple of the bands I work with use the C3000b with great results. It is a warm mic.

As far as preamps, the concensus is usually to only invest in one if it is better than the one's you have now. Mackie is a very popular board and a lot of folks are really happy with the preamps. Others do not like them or any board preamp and think you must spend at least five hundred bucks on a preamp to get good sound.

If you can't get a decent sound with the mic and board you already have, something else is wrong. I record the C3000B direct to ADAT with no eq or effects using the direct outs of my board and in mixdown it requires very little EQ to get a natural sound ....especially compared to the bluegrass standard AT4033 which is a brittle, high endy mess to mix.

You should be able to use a little EQ to get what you need unless it is a case of the source (your voice?) being the culprit.

[howie15]

Banjoal,
I have to comment on this just because I sit here looking at the exact setup. I run Sonar with both a mackie 1202VLZpro and a Roland VS-1880 through a Audiophile sound card. To be honest, I have not ran any of my mics through the mackie board yet...but they can't be any worse than the roland pre's in the 1880. Great unit...bad pre's..that's why I own a ART dual channel tube preamp. Gives a little warmer sound.
I agree with many of the statements above as to the fact that there are many ways to warm a sound. Tube gear has a tendency to give you a "warm" sound. I have heard great things about the aforementioned Rode NTK tube mic if you have an extra grand laying around for a mic. If you have a big budget look for a Neumann U49 (somebody correct me please if the number is wrong) I believe that is the older tube mic from Neumann. Analog equipment will give you more warmth..but with that comes noise...so pick your battles. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif either way... good luck!
Howie