Complicated computer audio/speaker question...

[Syxx676]

I know this may not be the right place, but maybe you can help...? It's just for my new condo that I bought.

Ok... so I have my computer setup...
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5305/0001303cw1.jpg

The 2 cylinder speakers connect to the subwoofer unit (when music or loud noises are played, they light up). The subwoofer unit then has a remote that attaches to it and then an audio jack... which goes straight to my computer audio card (or monitor if I want my 360 to use the speakers).

Anyways, I have these 2 speakers in my ceiling (right behind my desk)...
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1012/celingex1.jpg

And the input for them are down a small hall, around the corner, in my bedroom...
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/197/wallij4.jpg

General question is... how can I get the sound from my computer to come out of both my light up computer speakers AND the ones in my ceiling?
Are there any form of connectors, speaker wire, converters... to make this possible? The only problem I see is the wall jacks are a different size (banana connectors?).

[Syxx676]

Ok, so maybe I have these mixed up... but, how about this situation...

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103855
Connect the 1/8" plug to my subwoofer unit

Connect the RCA end to this...
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103710

Which (the Y-Adapter) connects to my computer's audio card. also plugging into the Y-Adapter would be this...
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103367

I would then take some standard speaker wire, connect 2 banana plugs (for the wall) on one end, and 2 RCA plugs on the other... not even sure if it'd work. But that would use one of my ceiling speakers...

I was also gonna ask if there was a way to add more bass by hooking up my old car sub also, but that may just be too complicated...

[sabianq]

the speaker connectors on the wall are "speaker" level inputs.
the audio line that you are intending to split to the ceiling speakers is "line" level.

you can get it to work but you need a stereo amplifier in between your line level connectors and your speaker level wall connectors.

do you have an amplifier sitting around?

[Syxx676]

I do actually... but I'm not sure what to do with it =(

sorry, I'm pretty good with computers, but have always had someone else do my car audio wiring n such.

[sabianq]

Ok, so maybe I have these mixed up... but, how about this situation...

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103855
Connect the 1/8" plug to my subwoofer unit

Connect the RCA end to this...
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103710

Which (the Y-Adapter) connects to my computer's audio card. also plugging into the Y-Adapter would be this...
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103367

I would then take some standard speaker wire, connect 2 banana plugs (for the wall) on one end, and 2 RCA plugs on the other...

plug the rca plug into the rca input on the amplifier,
then plug the speaker wires into the speaker output on the amp, then attach the other end of the speaker wires to the binding posts on the wall.

the wall plate has 4 plugs, 2 with a red stripe? 2 with a white or black stripe? no

one ceiling speaker corresponds to two binding posts, a red one and a black/white one, the other ceiling speaker corresponds to the other pair.

attach the speaker wires from the amplifier to the binding posts on the wall.

turn down the volume on the computer and the amplifier
plug in the amplifier,
send signal (music) to the speakers, slowly turn up the volume of the amplifier and see if you can hear anything.

you can test it by itself by plugging in an ipod or cd player to the RCA jacks of the amplifier using a stereo 1/8 inch plug to RCA cable.

[Syxx676]

wow, thank you very much for the help!

so I've got everything down except for the fact that I need the amplifier? I will try this tomorrow since I have the day off. I really hope to check back in in case I run into any difficulties.

One more question though. I plan to have a little 'condo-warming' party sometime soon as well. Would I be able to just take the sub+attached amp out of my car and hook that up? And what about grounding it?
I apologize if it's a stupid question. But, anyways, thanks again!

[Syxx676]

and, sorry, last thing for now... if I just wanted to hook my ipod up to the ceiling speakers, would I still need the amplifier? Or, do they make ipod stations that could just hook directly up to the wall binding posts?

[sabianq]

wow, thank you very much for the help!

so I've got everything down except for the fact that I need the amplifier? I will try this tomorrow since I have the day off. I really hope to check back in in case I run into any difficulties.

yes you need an amplifier to drive the speakers in your ceiling.

the speakers in your ceiling are "SPEAKER LEVEL", meaning that you need a SPEAKER LEVEL signal to drive them.

your IPOD or CD player is LINE LEVEL, a LINE LEVEL signal is not as energetic as a SPEAKER LEVEL signal, hooking up the IPOD to the speaker inputs would be as effective as hooking it up to your cat and expecting her to play music through her ears.

an amplifier takes a LINE LEVEL signal and will AMPLIFY it to a SPEAKER LEVEL signal which will drive the speakers.

in the consumer world RCA "audio" connectors are always LINE LEVEL, The headphone out is a stereo 1/8th inch connector, that is a variable LINE LEVEL signal. so the RCA inputs on the amplifier accept a LINE LEVEL signal.


One more question though. I plan to have a little 'condo-warming' party sometime soon as well. Would I be able to just take the sub+attached amp out of my car and hook that up? And what about grounding it?
I apologize if it's a stupid question. But, anyways, thanks again!

Hold on there hoss. Do not ever go connecting a car audio anything to a home audio anything (san IPOD or CD player to the line in jack in your car)
you are asking for a damaged pair of speakers, amplifier or even a fire.


[edit] this warning is for anyone who wants to connect car audio to home audio, unless you know exactly what you are doing, don't do it.
[edit] BTW, not a stupid question at all, i am glad you asked, because there is a real danger of something bad happening, i have to make it clear that connections like that are dangerous.
for one, you have no idea what the impedance the ceiling speakers are,
and finding a high amperage 12 volt power supply to power you car amplifier is expensive and not realistic,
sorry if i came across a bit strong, i just don't want anyone to get hurt. I doubt you want your house to get any warmer than a house warming should get.

the only amplifier that would be capable of driving your ceiling speakers would be a home or professional amplifier that is designed to plug into a 120 volt wall socket.
it it should be 8 ohms.

go easy on the volume,
take one step at a time.
start with the signal source (ipod or cd player) low.
if you hear cracking or poping or distorted sound,you are clipping the amplifier, this means that the volume or level of the ipod or cd player is set to high and needs to be turned down.
and have a good house warming.
cheers!

[Syxx676]

hm, gotcha... but now I'm not really sure what amplifier I need. I have 2 of them meant for a car subwoofer. Could you point me towards a good but affordable home one?
Is there any chance that there's something installed with these ceiling speakers for that already? I just don't know what kind of hookup that the people living here before me had. I also know there's a dial on the wall, that clicks when turned, but just figured that was speaker volume...

[Syxx676]

I really just want to be able to use these ceiling speakers that I inherited...

[Syxx676]

Or does a plain receiver work?

[sabianq]

sure, any stereo amplifier would most likely work.

the people who had your house before most likely drove the speakers with an amplifier that was rated to output 50-150 watts @ 8 ohms.

by looking at them (i am assuming they are 8~10 inch drivers) and were either designed as a sub frequency set up or a full range set up.

if they were set up as a sub frequency set up, there would probably be a passive crossover wired before the driver (speaker).
to find out, you can remove the speakers from the ceiling to see if there is indeed a crossover wired to them, or you can hook up am amplifier and see what it sounds like.

any home stereo receiver/amplifier would work


http://www.amazon.com/Stereo-Receivers-Amplifiers-Audio-Video/b?ie=UTF8&node=172561

you could borrow one

[sabianq]

http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2007/hav/62013047/sc004.jpg

as long at the receiver has an integrated amplifier with speaker binding posts and says something on the back about "8 ohms", it will most likely work.

[Syxx676]

hm, I guess I'll see what I can find. Or ask my old roommate if I can borrow his receiver...

[Syxx676]

I found this for $50...

Description: The VR-305 features Dolby Digital and DTS digital surround compatible 6-channel analog input and includes Dolby Pro Logic for decoding the multichannel soundtracks on over 9,000 movies and many TV shows. Two DSP soundfields let you add real-world ambience to your audio. Missing remote Control.

Product Features
Controls most brands of audio-video components
KAM-1 power-amplifier circuitry
Quartz PLL-synthesized digital tuning
Auto function 1-touch operation
Variable input sensitivity with individual source memory
Technical Details
Surround system: Dolby Pro Logic
Surround Sound DSP chips: 24-bit resolution
Bass management: Full digital, quick setup
Digital-audio input: 2 coaxial, 1 TOS-link optical
Power output: 100 watts per channel (stereo and surround)
A/B speaker output: Parallel
Input impedance: 27 k-ohms (phono), 47 k-ohms (CD, tape)
Output impedance: 2.2 k-ohms
Signal-to-noise ratio: 75 dB (phono), 93 dB (CD, tape)
Station presets: 40 FM/AM
Macro play: 3 programmable
Video outputs: 1 composite, 1 S-Video
Video inputs: 4 composite, 4 S-Video

rear pic... I don't think I see binding posts though.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7194/receiverbl7.jpg

[sabianq]

I would use that as a test unit...

that is a perfect tool to give you an idea about how the speakers are wired..
but my first instant reaction is that amp is pretty under powered to drive the speakers safely for an extended high volume time.
Im guess it may only be able to deliver a 15~40 watt max output.


.
you got an ohm meter?
check the resistance on the binding posts...

i bet it reads 7~9 ohms

look at the ohm output printed on the white sticker on the back of the receiver

if it says 8 ohms, you can use that amp to check if there is a crossover wired inline.

if the music sounds normal with a proper spectrum then they are wired for full range.
(^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I am betting on this situation because there appear to be 2 channels (4 pins) on the wall, if they were LF drivers then one channel is only really needed.

(unless the former guys were actually pro-audio and set up the channels to be phase related which would be really neat and would be something i would do :D )

if the sound sounds muddy and lacks highs then they are designed to pass only low frequencies, if that is the case, then you should hook up a software oscillator and sweep a the audio spectrum through them starting at say 20hz, you will hear the tone sweep up then just kind of fade away resulting of a ghost image of the music making it under the shelf 25 db down (depending on the attenuation depth) . , when you can no longer hear a lowder tone stop the ocilator and take note of the frequency.

than means that they are LFD (low frequency drivers)

another scenario, is that they are still LF drivers with no passive crossovers and the former occupants used what is called an electronic or active crossover inline before it hit the amplifier.

a crossover that plugs into the same wall socket as the amplifier and you feed it a line level signal from your ipod the frequency range of the music gets restricted and only the Low Frequencies are then headed to the amplifier. (they get carried down the same type of wire that runs from your ipod to the crossover) another LINE LEVEL wire with RCA or 1/4 inch phono jack or XLR jack is then run from the crossover to the amplifier, that LINE LEVEL signal which is processed or filtered goes to the amplifier, The amplifier takes that LINE LEVEL signal and amplifies it to speaker lever, since that LINE LEVEL signal missing the high frequency information and only the low frequency information is left, the amplifier only has to amplify the Low frequencies, this makes your system way more efficient. that is why car audio utilizes active or electronic crossovers (but they are in a totally different voltage class which makes it hard (not impossible, but complicated and expensive) to use house hold power to power them.

ask the person if you could borrow it.
hook it up and see what it sounds like.

[sabianq]

you know, it just occurred to me that i should point out that it may also be a 75volt or so distributed sound system which means that you would need an amp that is capable of a 70 volt output.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have a hankering to bet on an 8+ohm system first but it would be worth it to find out first.

have you taken the screens off the enclousers?

can you learnanything more? can you access them?
looking at them would actually be the best way to figure out what they are.

and an ohm meter.

i should have suggested that earlier... sorry

[Syxx676]

hm, well i'm not exactly sure how to take them out... but if i figure it out, what exactly do i need to look for?

[sabianq]

the issue is they look like a pain in the but* to get to. get a step stool and climb up and put your fingers under the rim and gently pull down to see if they feel like they are going to pull out of the ceiling.
don't use to much force, if it aint' coming stop don't pull them out of the ceiling.


if that doesn't work, DO THIS: the screen comes off from in the rim like the picture below, a smaller flat head screw driver will let you pry or pull the screen out, do so gently.


the cone of the drive will be exposed, if there is another smaller speaker suspended in front of the cone of the big speaker, you are good to go,that means it is a full range two channel system

like this:
http://www.intrasonictechnology.com/new_images/big_Speaker_I30C.jpg

note the little speaker in the center of the bigger speaker.
this is called a coaxial driver system or coaxial speaker.

[sabianq]

thinking about it i bet it is the screen that pulls out from the round white frame

[Syxx676]

Well I haven't tried yet, but I unpacked my stereo and instead of hooking up my left and right speaker... I used the ones from the wall. They worked! But, is this safe? and I also wonder if I could just use my stereo's "left and right" AUX input to do what I'm trying to do... all I know is that my stereo says '240 Watt total power'

[sabianq]

240 watts 8 ohms,
how many speaker outputs do you have?

divide 240 by how many speaker outs you have (a right and left is 2 outs)

if it sounds fine, and it sounds like you have a full range (ie.. no missing high end) then you have a full range set up.

if the sound is clear and not distorted, then your amp is most likely be good.

Dont overdrive turn them (to loud) and you should be golden.

I am willing to bet the ceiling speakers are about 100 or so watts RMS.
Its ok to use an amp that is more powerful than the speakers call for. this gives you more headroom on your amp. Just watch that volume.
Cheers!

any (aux in) is a line level in, it will work fine.

[Syxx676]

works/sounds perfect! and I haven't looked at them yet, but while at best buy i noticed a set that looked exactly like mine (even though could be different), and it said 120 watts each.

anyways, thanks a bunch for the help! you made all of this sound much simpler for me...

[sabianq]

glad we could help.
cheers!

[ecc83]

The ceiling speakers look very much like the ones used by my last (***te) employer. If you get up close and personal you should see a slighly larger perforation in the grill and stick a spike in that to GENTLY get it off.

The speaker might be those ditributed by www.russound.com and these should be able to give you more information.

From memory I don't think they were more than 30/40W average power rated.

Dave.