FIREWIRE today or USB 2.0 tomorrow ?

[BI Gjuba]

I´m going to buy a new pc early next year and I´m scouting for a soundcard. I really like the USB solution but since it isn´t 100% I´ll pass. Next up FIREWIRE. The other week I attended a seminar on the digi 002 held by a digidesign. The 002 is way more than I´ll ever need but it´s a firewire solution that works (as far as I could tell).

The only reasonably priced Firewire cards I could find were MOTU 828 and Firestation.

I´m wondering what you guys think - should I even consider these cards or should I wait and hope that there´ll be some more firewire cards in the near future ?

Also, have anyone heard anything about any upcoming USB 2.0 audio cards ?


All the best


Tobias

[brzilian]

Firewire is the best way to go with external devices. Even USB 2.0 will not compare as its communications protocol is not as efficient.

As far as best overall, you still can't beat PCI devices. They are still capable of handling 2x data throughput as Firewire and cost much less...

[Sui]

PCI is all well and good. But if you are one of the growing masses that use a closed system (like any iMac or laptop) for recording or for performances (laptop sales were up 22% over desktops last year) then PCI is not the direction you want to look.

The real question is if you are using a PC or a MAC. If you are on a PC you are going to see that near all motherboards made today have USB 2.0 (now called USB High Speed. USB 1.1 is now called USB Full Speed) in the chipset. Not all have 1394 included on the motherboard and if they do they are using third party chipset.

IF you are working on a MAC then 1394 it the format for you. You are NOT going to see USB High Speed on a Mac any time soon (or that is what I am hearing). Jaguar has 1394 built into the OS and if an audio company makes a class compliant device you get the driver for free. (MOTU and MLAN are not class compliant and you’re more than likely not to see Mlan in OS X until the next major upgrade of the OS.

The good part about 1394 is that it is basically a network protocol. This means that there need to be intelligence on either side of the 1394 port (AKA Link layers). This means that Audio companies can make audio interfaces that can be use with or without a computer. The bad part is that the 1394 chipset costs 2 to 3 times the amount of USB High Speed chipset.

Sorry if this is a lot more info that you need to know. But I HATE blanket statements. And I truly believe in giving someone enough information so they can make up there own mind on what is best device for them.

Sui

[Sui]

PCI is all well and good. But if you are one of the growing masses that use a closed system (like any iMac or laptop) for recording or for performances (laptop sales were up 22% over desktops last year) then PCI is not the direction you want to look.

The real question is if you are using a PC or a MAC. If you are on a PC you are going to see that near all motherboards made today have USB 2.0 (now called USB High Speed. USB 1.1 is now called USB Full Speed) in the chipset. Not all have 1394 included on the motherboard and if they do they are using third party chipset.

IF you are working on a MAC then 1394 it the format for you. You are NOT going to see USB High Speed on a Mac any time soon (or that is what I am hearing). Jaguar has 1394 audio drivers built into the OS and if an audio company makes a class compliant device you get the driver for free. (MOTU and MLAN are not class compliant and you’re more than likely not to see Mlan in OS X until the next major upgrade of the OS.

The good part about 1394 is that it is basically a network protocol. This means that there need to be intelligence on either side of the 1394 port (AKA Link layers). This means that Audio companies can make audio interfaces that can be use with or without a computer. The bad part is that the 1394 chipset costs 2 to 3 times the amount of USB High Speed chipset.

Sorry if this is a lot more info that you need to know. But I HATE blanket statements. And I truly believe in giving someone enough information so they can make up there own mind on what is best device for them.

Sui

[laaba]

Hi there,
sorry guys but i am a bit lost here what is third party chipsets or the diference between firewire and USB? can somebody give me a link to computer terminology or hardware component explanation i need to educate myself more in this field since i´ve begun recording with my PC.
thanx

[brzilian]

Originally posted by Sui:

Sorry if this is a lot more info that you need to know. But I HATE blanket statements. And I truly believe in giving someone enough information so they can make up there own mind on what is best device for them.

Sui

Blanket statements??? Give me a break!

Lets see:

USB - 12Mbits/sec or 1.25Mbytes/sec
Firewire - 400Mbits/sec or 50Mbytes/sec
USB 2.0 - on paper 480Mbits/sec but in real life its closer to 300Mbits/sec
PCI - 100Mbytes/sec and higher

When you look at cost, Firewire and USB audio devices cost WAY more than any PCI solution. You pay a premium for less performance.

If you are using a laptop, you should be looking at a PC-Card solution anyways. It may cost more, but at least you are dealing with performance that is more comparable to PCI.

[Boom]

If your not using a laptop definitely go with PCI.

[BI Gjuba]

Thanks for all your input.

I´m going to buy a barebone PC www.slixpc.com (http://www.slixpc.com)
and I´ll have at least 2.4GHz and 512Mb ram. The thing is that the barebone system has only got one pci slot but it has got 4 USB and 3 Firewire ports.

The Firestation looks nice and the preamps are supposed to be really good. In all, it seems like a good solution.

Am I stupid if I don´t buy a PCI card with a break out box ?

[rdh3t]

did you end up getting the firestation? If so, how do you like it--I'm thinking of getting one for a laptop interface for live recording. Any info would be helpful.


Thanks

[vgermani]

This may be a bit off topic but I just read an article somewhere that said that USB 2.0 isn't gaining traction because Microsoft isn't supporting the 2.0 interface in XP. If that's true then USB audio is at a dead end.

Anyone working with XP that can dispute this?

One of the main reasons that I like PCI (or PCMCIA) vs. usb or firewire is that people tend to try to do way too many things with the bus. Especally USB!

I bought a 24/96 USB interface expecting to not use USB too much. Now mice don't even have a PS2 connecter any more. Non-USB components are becoming hard to find. I'm now contending with a USB mouse, USB keyboard, USB control surface, USB hubs...It's way too much.

Firewire isn't as bad but higher speed devices such as disks are using firewire more and more.

[knowdoubt]

Quite simply, 'Firewire' is already well proven to be an excellent audio card interface. MOTU has been using it successfully for a couple of years for all of their cards. Their 1st generation interfaces basically used a PCI card in which they included the Firewire controller hub on their PCI card to interface to various breakout box options & their new generation just skips the PCI card, depending on the PC to have it's own Firewire controller hub. I have a MOTU 24i of the 1st generation type which can record 24 analog input tracks & output 2 channels simultaneously via a simple convenient & fairly long light weight Firewire cable interface between the breakout box & the PC. I also have a Delta 1010 That can only record up to 8 analog inputs & output 8 channels simultaneously & it's cable interface between breakout box & the PCI card is much shorter & heavier with a bulky & heavy printer port size connector. The MOTU's Firewire interface is far more convenient & being able to record 24 tracks & output 2 channels simultaneously shows that bandwidth is hardly a consideration when comparing PCI to Firewire for audio. There are also plenty of PC MOBO's to choose from these days that come with Firewire on board so that's no issue.

My advise if your building a PC for audio today, look for onboard Firewire to give yourself that option.

[BIGJUBA]

I ended up getting a motu 828 which I recently sold and now I´m looking for a new card.

The Firestation drivers seems way too flaky. I´ve attented to demo´s of it and none of them could get the unit to work 100%. Reinstalling drivers after restart etc. too bad it looks great.

Thanks for all your input.

ps. I bought a motu 828 despite all the crap I´ve heard about motu and pc and I gotta tell you - the unit worked 100% so don´t believe everything you read on the web!

[GZsound]

According to a recent article in Electronic Musician, Microsoft has jumped fully behind USB 2. They didn't have it fully developed (surprise!) in time for the XP issue but have included full support in the latest service pack.

EM states there is a lot more device support for USB than Firewire and also that over 80% of all the PC's sold will have USB 2 support and not Firewire. Apple has stated they are "looking" at USB 2.

Firewire appears to be stable and from all reports works very well. However, we all remember the Beta/VHS wars (don't we) where a "better" format got eaten.

Face it, if Apple has a 15% market share and supports Firewire and PC's have an 85% market share and support USB 2, what do you all think is going to happen. Anybody still using TDIF connections instead of S/PDIF or ADAT?