Computer recording setup

[DR.NO]

Hello all, I have a customer that i am building a new rig for who is interested in recording the band he plays in and burning some cd's. He would like to be able to mix all the diferent instruments on his computer and record a cd for the band. Since neither he nor I no much about the type of equipment he needs, i am looking for some help from these forums. He is on a budget so a "good value" setup is what he is after. Does anyone have any recommendations as far as what to get?

He will need something that comes bundled with software which is relatively easy to use.

Also from what i have read as far as the computer goes, the more ram the better for recording.

any opinions would be appreciated

[joe4324]

I cant speak with "much" first hand experience as I have yet to buy a professional audio sound card. I have been doing ALOT of research in the last few months and have been involved with music for several years.

Because I have little hands on expereince with the sound hardware itself I wont comment but I can offer some help on the computer itself.

I believe a system similar to this, would be a great starting point.

(prices taken from newegg.com)


*****ANTEC SOLUTION SERIES MODEL SLK1600 (BEIGE) w/ANTEC SMART POWER 300W
$48.00

*****►On Sale! 2X CRUCIAL MICRON 256MB 32x64 PC 2100 DDR RAM
$100.00

*****►On Sale! ECS K7S5A SiS® 735 SOCKET A MOTHERBOARD - RETAIL
$58.00


*****►Blow Out! AMD Athlon XP 1700+ Thoroughbred /266 FSB Processor CPU 1700+/ 1.47GHz -OEM,
$46.99

*****►On Sale! Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live! Dolby Digital 5.1 - OEM
$34.00

*****ATI OEM RADEON 7500LE 64MB SDR TV-out No DVI AGP BULK
$49.00

*****Panasonic Panaflo Axial Fan 80x80x25.5mm, Ball Bearing, DC 24V, 1.68W, 3200 RPM, 14.1 CFM, 24.0 dB-A
$16.00

*****Thermalright SK-7
$25.00

Subtotal » $376.99
Shipping and Handling Charge » $ 31.00
Grand Total » $ 407.99


I think this is a GREAT system for the price and I think could be quite suitable as a "entry" level DAW platform. I know that the Motherboard is the KEY in a DAW system. As the motherboard chipset (in this case its the SIS 735) Can make or break your sound card compatability.

I hear ALOT of sucess stories and praise for the SIS735 chipset. And I have personally built over 20 systems with this paticular motherboard with a 100% sucess ratio.

For the SBlive 5.1 sound card. I put this here because you may want a card for sampling. and its also nice to have a card for general computer level multi-media sound. (ie computer speakers and the like). Most pro-sumer grade sound cards I have seen dont even have 1/8th out Jacks found on 99% of all computer speakers. They assume you use studio grade gear and 1/4th headphones.

It sounds like you will want to stick with a PS2 Mouse and Keyboard as USB seems to conflict with some sound cards (dont know wich ones). I hear it may cause hiss'ing and popping on the tracks.

Combine this system, with a sub $600 sound card (wich you can find plenty of that appear to be very high quality) and you will have a solid, budget DAW platform that should be quite powerful and flexible.

What does everyone else think?

[DR.NO]

I already have the system designed, i am just looking for advice with the sound card end of the machine, it has lots of ram, lots of hard drive space, but from what i am seen on the net, you can easily spends thousands on a sound recording solution.

Wow have i ever found alot of info on these forums, sound like the AArvark 24/96 unit will do just what my customer needs.

A quick question , will the software that is being bundled with this product be all he needs, or does he need sonar 2.0 XL

There also seem to be alot of USB units popping up, does anyone have experience with these.




[This message has been edited by DR.NO (edited 01-26-2003).]

[AMG731]

I guess a good question would be, what will the band be recording? How many inputs and outputs? What type of budget? To what level are they trying to take their music?

[GZsound]

To attempt an answer to your question. You need as much ram as your client can afford. He needs a good soundcard, the Soundblaster series are not considered quiet enough for serious music.

The options regarding sound cards are fairly extensive, however, a PCI card is the best way to go. The next issue us how many inputs are needed. For multitrack recording of a band, multiple inputs are necessary unless he wants to record one instrument at a time.

TerraTec makes an EWS 88 card that has eight analogue inputs/outputs and cost around $300. It would require a mixer to get the signal into the analogue inputs of the card. Interfaces with XLR (low Z) mic inputs and phantom power can easily cost up to a thousand dollars.

USB interfaces are cheaper but will not carry more than a couple of channels of audio.

The M Audio Delta 1010LT is very popular and quite inexpensive. It has eight inputs, includes two lo z inputs and costs around $380.

Most cards come bundled with some form of multitrack software, but these are usually limited or "light" versions of regular programs. There are several inexpensive multitrack recording/editing programs such as ntracks ($80), Music Maker Delux 7 ($75) that will work.

Better programs include Cool Edit Pro ($250) all the way up to Pro Tools which can cost thousands..

Most audio recording programs suggest two hard drives, one for program and one for audio data. The higher the rpm drive for audio data the better. I personally use SCSI drives for my audio data but with the new drives that is not necessary.

Your client will also have to find out about mixers, mics, monitors, etc. But that's another subject..

[DR.NO]

Thanks for the replies.

I may be thinking about this all wrong, but he is planning on recording cd which use 16bit/44khz if i am not mistaken, so why would you want a sound card that can record at levels higher than cd quality. Isn't that a bit of overkill.

Also, the number of inputs he uses changes all the time, but was i was thinking was for him to go buy a mixer with enough inputs for what he needs, the using one output from the mixer feed that into a sound card and record it in some audio software. He kind of jumped the gun he went out and bought cakewalk sonar 2 xl today. It looks like pretty fancy software, but we will have to try it out

[GZsound]

First off, it is nearly impossible to buy a good sound card that is 16 bit 44.1Khz. Second, he will be really unhappy if he mixes his band down to mono and goes into one input on his sound card.

The thinking regarding the oversampling with sound cards is sort of analagous to your car tires. They are designed to go a lot faster than 55 mph.

Oversampling gives better quality recordings and most software dithers the file to 16 bit for CD usage.

I would suggest your client at least buy a PCI sound card with two analogue inputs and mix his band down to stereo with his mixer.

He needs to keep in mind he cannot turn the guitar down, vocals up, add reverb to the snare, etc. in a stereo file since whatever he does to the stereo file effects the entire file. He'll get frustrated with mono really fast.

[Mr. Moon]

Dr.NO, this is Mr. Moon....

(sounds like an old James Bond movie ...heh)

If you scan the posts around this excellent forum (welcome, by the way!), you'll read that I'm running an Aardvark DP 2496 and Sonar 2.1 XL. I have been very pleased with both products and they do work well together for me.

FYI: There is a link on Cakewalk's web site that allows registered owners to download the 2.1 patch, which will bring your version up to date. Or you could wait until 2/1/03 to download the version 2.2 patch, or whenever they release it.

If you would like to hear my only posted work-in-progress that I used Sonar 2.1 and the Aardvark sound card to record with, go to the following site:
www.Soundclick.com/MrMoon (http://www.Soundclick.com/MrMoon)

...select the "music" link, and download the MP3 or steam the tune called War#11. This is very much a work in progress; it doesn't even have vocals yet. I am currently working with the mixing and mastering, so it's just a work-in-progress until I get the mix right and a vocalist to lay down the voice.

I'm very much still slamming up against the learning curve to try to find the "right" sound, ...it's really frustrating at times!

I also would suggest purchasing as much memory as possible, I currently run 1 GB PC2700 DDR memory and the system runs better than it did when I had only 512 MB. If you look on another thread here, you'll see a more detailed list of my gear... Oh heck, I won't be lazy... here's the list:

System Config:

OS: *Windows XP Pro (SP 1)

Hardware:
*AMD AthlonXP 2400+ Processor
*MOBO ASUS A7S333, SiS 745 chipset
*1 GB PC2700 DRR RAM (2-512Mb sticks)
*20GB Maxtor ATA-133 boot drive on IDE channel 0 Master
*80GB secondary Maxtor ATA 133 Hard drive channel 1 master
*Lite-On 48-24-48 cdrw drive on IDE channel 1 slave
*Aardvark DP24/96 driver v7.04
*ATI Radeon AGP/4x w/64mb video card
*19" Hi-res monitor running in 1600x1200 at 85hz refresh
*330 Watt ATX power supply, with several additional case fans
*APC350 Battery Backup

Anyways, the system is very stable and records very well. I've been very pleased with my choices!

I would suggest that when you purchase whatever sound card you finally decide on, go with a reputable dealer (online or local) that will let you return the card even if you just don't like it. Many dealers will only allow returns if the device is defective, so be careful!!

Also be sure that your soundcard is compatible with your motherboard chipset. For example, the Aardvark sound cards are not compatible with the older Athlon chipsets and Aardvark support also suggests staying away from any VIA chipset with their devices.

Hope this helps!

-Mr. Moon

[DR.NO]

Well after talking to the members in the band, they aren't after a super high end setup, it appears that they already have a stereo mixer, with all the input and outputs they need. They are basically looking for a way to get it into the computer and burn it on a cd. So what i am after is a good sound card that will record a stereo input. I would like 24/96 capabilities, and i read in another forum that the sounb blaster audigy 2 EX should be out soon, which will offer true 24/96 recording. Or can someone suggest a better sound card.

And one more question, i have been building computers for 10 years, the most i have ever dealt with a midi port is plugging in a joystick, i have never really had a need for one. I have been seeing some stuff about using the MIDI port for music. Can someone explain that to me a little bit. Would it be a better solution than what i am planning on using.

[GZsound]

The MIDI port is for MIDI. Not sound. MIDI is a computer protocol that allows controllers to "talk" to sound creation devices like keyboard modules, softsynths, etc. You can't get audio into your computer through the midi port.

You want a PCI sound card. An M Audio Audiophile 2496 will work just fine for stereo recording. It sells for $149.

Cakewalk will work fine with stereo files.

Your client can also purchase Sonic Foundry Sound Forge XP for around $50 or download Cool Edit 2000 (from Syntrillium.com) for around the same money. Both are excellent two track audio editors and CE2000 supports DX plug-ins (an additional download) which allows your client to step up to some pretty sophisticated editing tools in the future instead of having to buy a new software program.

Soundblaster products like the Audigy are not recommended for serious music. Too noisy. Mostly used by gamers.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally posted by GZsound:
Soundblaster products like the Audigy are not recommended for serious music. Too noisy. Mostly used by gamers.

Words to live by. If you go with *any* SoundBlaster card, you'll most likely have poor performance and audible artifacts like pops introduced into your files as they're recorded.

I had a SB Live! Platinum, and while it worked perfectly for gaming (it still does!), it was terrible for any "real" audio recording. My SB Live! card introduced audible pops and crackles into tracks which couldn't be edited out or removed. Not only that, but there's a nasty beast called "latency" which the SB cards are famous for. (I'll leave it up to you to research this topic yourself).

Long story short: I would *not* purchase a SB card if you want to do anything even remotely close to "professional" recording!

-Mr. Moon

[Bops2000]

depends on how you set it up mr moon re: sblive

[DR.NO]

SO i wont be going for any sound blaster card then. Now if i go for this m-audio card, all the sites i have read, recommend it for multitrack recording and home theatres. But since it comes with WDM drivers will i be able to use it as a basic sound card for gaming and windows XP?

Everywhere i look for this card seems to bundled it with some sort of software, so i am going to get my client to return the Cakewalk sonar 2 xl software.

Thanks for all the help


[This message has been edited by DR.NO (edited 01-28-2003).]

[Bops2000]

""will i be able to use it as a basic sound card for gaming and windows XP?""

No you wont. Lest you switch card to use mme default.
I had the same problem where I wanted to use internal midi sound from my machine.
Thats what I liked about sb Live, yea it has a bit of real time latency issues, but it works real well with live audio and midi in real time (in cakewalk).
On a tweaked p2 450, I had no problems with 26 tracks of audio, with a few effects plug ins as well as automated console.
I now have an maudio 2496 cheap card and am basically frustrated with the software that comes with it - basically nothing.
Again depends what you want. I suggest get the live card for midi as well as recording first.
then go for a 'big boy card ' later.
Yo can run any old mixer into blaster line ins. and the software has a small learning curve.
best of luck


[This message has been edited by Bops2000 (edited 01-28-2003).]

[Mr. Moon]

Originally posted by Bops2000:
depends on how you set it up mr moon re: sblive

I hate to have to relive the nightmare I had with that card, but after reading through many posts in several forums (including this one) I came to the conclusion that the problems I was experiencing could not be resolved with that SB card still installed on my system.

Long story short: Latency while recording a new track (i.e guitar) while playing along with an existing track (drums) was too huge to be able to tolerate. Even with tweaks, bit-rates setting changes, bit depth setting changes, multiple drivers tried, different PCI slots, etc., the minimum latency settings I could get in Sonar 2 without pops and dropouts was 30ms. So playing along with any pre-existing track and trying to record simultaneously was really tough. I had to time it out as if I was playing a delay and the first slapback was the track that was being recorded... not pretty to say the least!

Anyways, it still makes one h3ll of a nice gaming card!!! And it did work without too many problems in SoundForge, so if all you're doing is recording 2 tracks (L and R) to master and burn to a cd, who knows... Maybe the SB would work for DR.NO?

Dr.No: I personally think you'd be making a mistake by returning the Sonar software, but that's just my opinion. When I purchased my Aardvark it came with Cakewalk Pro 9.0x. I haven't used it once... Most cards I've seen will come with either an older version of software (as mine did) or demo versions that either won't let you save files, that limit the number of usable tracks available to you, or have a time limit.

Anyways, good luck with whatever path you decide to take!

-Mr. Moon