Drums-live room, Boppers help!

[87PRS]

guys, I've got a small 16X20 drum room with 8 a foot ceiling, at the present its got some aurelex around the side walls, one side has 40X40" window, and on the ceiling I have like 6 pieces of aurelex in an arch, kinda cymbol shape. What I was wondering before going to the trouble of dampning the ceiling "more" is would it help to have more absortion on the ceiling in a small room like this. I know, I know try it out, experiment, but I've got a bad back and this is a major feat for me on a ladder....any comments? Here's a pic, since this pic I put in a wooded floor....crap, doesn't really show ceiling...I'll get another pic soon.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/droom.jpg

[Bops2000]

How many mikes you runnin on the kit ?
Overheads can be your best friend or worst enemy...
sounds to me you have enough absorption.
my room is only 17 by 13, wood floor 1 wall difused, wood floor, popcorn ceiling half 8' half 12 feet high. But I don't really use the room as it is kinda "floppy" sounding, so I close mike what I can and set up input eq by trial and error (just to get harmonic ring outt of room, not a lot of 'dialing'). Dumb idea, thats why I would try it, is run four eye hooks in ceiling in a square over kit, then cut a moving blanket to size and via coathanger wire hang the blanket 1' below ceiling, that may be too much, but at least it's not permanent. carpet under the kit is a must.
Or you can just gate 'em all at input, doesn't seem as punchy if you try running gate in the daw afterwards, not a big fan of that anyhoot, but a lot of folks do it.

[itsplayed]

Hey 87', you consider a 16x20 drum booth, small? :eek: How 'small' is the rest of the studio?:confused:

[Bops2000]

Vulcan DC also had some good points way back, that is to dial in the overheads first. They could be up to 75% of your ambient mix, albeit realisim and depth to the kit. Add a 'room mike' for some more air also to your 75% mix. (looks like you got enough mikes). You don't want that 70's box sound, I presume. Then dial in the close mikes, once done, record the settings via pen and paper, or take a pix of the board for a start point for future.
At mixing, or at recording some ideas:
For a rough idea, look at dropping eq around 50Hz on snare, also: bands around 300-700 Hz to clarify definition of whole kit, 2-3k boost hats, overheads,(old analog trick when layering tracks), I call it 2k boost from old boards, and around 8k for 'air'. It's a bit of work, and humidity, tuning, player, you know the drill all are variables. I still haven't got my kit to where I want it.
But once you get close, you should be ok to get a nice layered kit.
Compression around 2:1 if needed.

[Bops2000]

I use sonar
but my input ADA converters are adjusted to the
analog board, so I have the board outputs close to unity gain, (flat signal into daw). (see pix)
Also I run 16 tracks direct in, usually 8 for drums alone, that may be an issue for you. Without that capability, you are stuck with mixing on the fly with analog board to four? track output. best to run subs on analog.
I have dicked around for quite some time and realized I needed at least 8 tracks for drums simultaneously, thats why i run the Mackie 24/8.
OK -i ADDED A DRUM TRACK ON MYSPACE, NO EFFECTS, NUTTIN -THIS WAS RECORDED TO 2 TRACK FROM BOARD TO DAW,(8 in 2 out), I ain't proud of it but it tis what it is, (snare is light on purpose for tight rimshot ring) I call this sonata "Sm Rm Drums"

[Bops2000]

I added the same kit mix to the rest of the tracks, again no effects on the kit yet.
see "smr add tracks" on my space.
Emai me bro
for the new guys:
Folks need to know what it is, songwise before you start mesin with the kit track, and how to attack it, drums samples ain't no fix on acid or anywheres else: they are the real deal, like the rest of the band, or artist, players, - if you don't play, then don'y play the game, if you want to play, then be humble and ask. There are reasons why music does what it does one reason why it don't do what it does, is lack of understanding, beleive it or not, everybody sees it.

[87PRS]

itsplayed...sorry guys, oldsheimers settin' in.. drum room is 12X16...my live room is 20X16, hence 16X32 building. Ol' age is a gift....don't open it hehe

Boppers, yes, I have tried most of the deals on the drums, what I usually do is run straight through Ghost 24LE, I can do 24 tracks at once (never had a band that uses more than 14), and usually run 8 mics to kit, have tried a extra room mic for ambience but it doesn't do much in sound for this size room. And this may be a problem with overheads, I'm using 2 SP C4's they sound good, but dang I can't even break out the omni caps.

Tried, no eq and sounds okay, tried eq'ing off Ghost and this sounds better, usually wit the RNC on bass drum and snare at 2:1 as you stated. I have gated the drums (analog), yegaads that sux I spent alot of time on this still don't like the sound I guess it sounds too processed or somethin'...what I do with bands is straight mics through Ghost to HD24XR for capture then dump to AA for mix/edit etc. I always mix drums first, with rock I like the drums right up front in the mix.

I appreciate the track on myspace, but I am on dial up, snare clik....wait...bass drum hit....wait...oh yeah there's a bass guitar....wait haha de-rives me nuts, I cant stand the anticipation.

I'll try some of the eq'ing tech, the 300-700 is pretty much norm mids I owe alot to dc our bud in india on this one he helped me some time ago via da mail.

On the snare I usually get a good hit at 1K in mix, and add some bottom. bass drum 65-80Hz and 14K attack hit, usually mess around with eq in mix for results pending on the band.

I have and do run the OH's, mixed first man I can't believe all the articles I have read on this technique and using the 3 mic approach and it does work and sounds good on many apps, and as stated I mix in the rest, usually snare/bass drum then go back, clean up tom tracks (noise inbetween) and mix in hh's and start all over configuring Fx's, s/w comps etcetc which also change the EQ's volumes blahblah man...it gets tough haha, do you think a small room sounds better livelier, than a small room deadened? Humm, maybe we are just stuck with the rooms we are in regardless, ya can't make a purse outta a hogs ear (but ya can ride a hawg haha), bops go to my website, on CD called "3" at bottom (only song) check out drums on it. thanks

new guys, if you plan on recording bands with drummers, plan on spending alot of time learning the process, its fun, but takes time to grasp the elements. You're never to old to learn and your never too young to be the best.

[Bops2000]

I think your kit sounds kinda neat. What i am noticing is the crashes, do not have the same definition as the ride, the ride sounds good. I wouldn't use slapback on the kick with the reverb goin on, Bass drum aint bad when its in the mix, probably dry it out at intro, then bring back the effects.
The big thing is the snare and toms don't have that stick hittin the head sound, but that ia a matter of taste, I guess. I'd say bring the snare, toms, and crashes up in volume and thin them out a little more.
as far as small rooms, i dont really dampen anything, all my drums are wide open double heads even kick, i run powerstroke on top, ambassadors on bottom, generic 18" Bass drum, it just 'Pops" better. And I mike kick from rear.
Thats my take. Over all, your kit sounds kind of deep purply, not a bad sound at all for that tune.

[87PRS]

I really appreciate your comments and suggestios,,,weird thing is the drummers heads on that particular record were like 5 years old and beaten to deathm know aht I mean? and....the drums are all double headed and no muffs, with one of those ring system jobbies on the bass drum. Problem I have with the drums or drummer is backing off of playing so much in recording, "dynamics" which work well live but seem to drop out in studio work. I have other songs he recorded and I have actually gone in and bumped (seperate) parts in mix up +3db to keep a consistent level in mix...ie snare and bass drum. I do not like the crash sound I get seems a little too airey, I did a remix and backed of the verb, it sounds better, and with some leveling on the individual drums they came up in the mix better...man, its almost like sitting there with your finger on a volume getting a lead vocalist to "sit" in the mix... I made this small 16"X24" panel, (absorbent) and mounted it on a stand, put it at the left of HH's, got a better response what with the glass window directly to the left. LOL the bass drum is dry, all the way through mix. I'm thinkin' his heads were to dead to get any stick response sounds. The drummer is a big Zep fan, ol' dude hair down to his belt, ya know...I may bring in another drummer just for an A/B on the track(s)...thanks Boppers appreciate your time.

[Bops2000]

Funny you should say that, as I have an actual Mattress, and a moving blanket on the left side of the kit also hiding a small closet.
Could be an Omen...

[87PRS]

so....what is the boppers hiding in the small closet, inverted green foilage?

[87PRS]

again I re-mixed the track (not posted) and worked on the drums, muted everything again, started over drums first, added bass guitar, etc and I think I have the sound I was looking for still have to run it by my better half for a play in the van...actually got a better string sound on the bass this time around, more ro-to if you know what I mean...also tried sumthin' diff on the snare, doubled the track up, put verb on one and push another up center of it around 300 dry both 180'd hard R & L, also tried a delay on 2nd dry snare to effect stereo image of hard pans, didn't keep it but was different.

[87PRS]

Here's some pics of my studio, plus a shot of the Hammond XK set up, ejoy!
Studio Mix Area
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/studiomixarea1.jpg
The Rack
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/therack.jpg
Keys Tiered
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/keystiered.jpg
Looking from Drum Room
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/drumrrommtolive.jpg
The Ghost
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/ghostetal.jpg
and an old band photo from the 70's, me in front middle
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/meinthemiddle70s.jpg

:)

[Bops2000]

Your the only one smilin dude...

[87PRS]

Boppers, ya wake up on the wrong side?...seems to be that way doesn't it...evidently my studio ain't worth a talk, but I like it, so I'll keep on smilin'...

[Bops2000]

Boppers, ya wake up on the wrong side?...seems to be that way doesn't it...evidently my studio ain't worth a talk, but I like it, so I'll keep on smilin'...
No - in the picture silly...
smilin' in the picture of the old band....
So I guess you inherit this as I had gotten from Sonic years ago....

[87PRS]

I am proud to receive the 2007 Bunny award haha ya did it too 'eh bops?...and whatever happened to Sonic, the dude left, made dc a boss the same week I joined and ain't heard much from him since...good audio dude btw.

I was lookin at GZ's thread about the Cad M177 mics, what do you think about running larger overheads, and using a sdc for a close mic on rides?
Also considering a ribbon mic, dunno why i just want one hehe probably guitar cabs

all the guys in the pic had sumthin to smile about....now after 37 years ya got me wondering...oh the drummer in the background 17 years old...we put him back there thought we were going to loose him but ended up playing for 5 years with the band.

[Bops2000]

I have read a lotta folks run the cads, wish i could afford earth mics. Peart has like a dozen earths on his kit...when I am famous I suppose.... As far as the ribbon, I tried an Audio Technica 3035 to make the room seem bigger, but it picks up lizard footsteps from outside, ---WAY too hot so look for some other type, perhaps in your studio, where it looks pretty quiet, (and roomier), something like that would work. I'd like to find an old shotgun mic to borrow and try that idea also, (basically about 4 foot high and about 6 feet away). The ribbon idea sounds good for some real depth though. (or GAS). :)
(this weekend I am gonna throw the RE20 up front of the Bass, run the Cascade m49's on o/h, run an EV 667 on the snare for seperation and roll-off the Sm81 on hats. My kit generally stays put, so I want a plug & play situation where I don't have to mess with them.

[87PRS]

well Pert is da man, and he can afford some measly Earthworks mics o'yeah I want sum too...and you are famous Bops, just ain't rich haha...yet!

The RE20 is a fav of mine and I haven't even used one, the mic just seems to be bad and gits all kinds of good revues, hows it sound on kick? another GAS item jeesh.

No what ya mean about having the drums set up all the time and dialed in, all I get are drummers coming in, and resetting stuff all the time...no dedicated drums in room. What ya think about some electrics for stationaries?

[87PRS]

well okay then bops...update: I am putting up absorbing material overhead, the next drummer who comes in will get the test...come to think of it bops I do have a spare kit in the spare room of my house, maybe I'll bring it out to the studio for a set-up...wish I could kick the darn things without being laid up for 3 days. Only problem is I have a bunch of cheap cymbals laying around, nothing worth a hoot. What's a good cymbal pack, I got my youngest son some ProB*'s to start off with, not real impressive.

[Bops2000]

The RE20 is a fav of mine and I haven't even used one, the mic just seems to be bad and gits all kinds of good revues, hows it sound on kick? another GAS item jeesh.

No what ya mean about having the drums set up all the time and dialed in, all I get are drummers coming in, and resetting stuff all the time...no dedicated drums in room. What ya think about some electrics for stationaries?

Ya know the 667 is predecessor to re 20, a bit dryer and up end bassier, so if you can find, get it.
I think an electronic kit would work very well. I have been thinking for quite some time to either buy some remo pads and trigger, pick up a pintech unit for 200 bucks, or a drum pad from roland. V-drums do not warrant a look for me, LEST ROLAND WANTED TO SPONSER ME, seein how I am so 'famous'.
Seriously you could make do with a pintek pad config with a used alesis d5, for about $300. I think I still have software to program d5 via daw somewheres, (sent d4 to Austin).
As far as cymbals, in a recording situation, you can do good with sabian B series for starters, look for an old (pre 90's) zildjian for ride best ping for the buck, however you cn always duct tape them, if too hot. Either way you will have to run real cymbals, which I never atempted, (electronic kit with real cymbals), on the fly. Should'nt be a big deal though.
My big gun cymbals are from years ago and carry very well on a stage environment, somewhat dark with a slow decay, not the best thing for recording, but, it's like your favorite axe, you know the response from ass to elbo. Go for the sabians for starters. (sabian is an offshoot from zildjian, as two of the brothers got pissed at each other). Rule one on cymbals- check them out if you can at music store first, then buy from fatcory or direct from net, lest it is an old one that you like, (you will know). I am still looking for a sound from Paul Simon's "Still Crazy After all These Years" sizzle, sounds like a 22" zildjian, however not the kind of cymbal you just want to drill holes in and add paper tabs.... sorry for the rant.

[Bops2000]

well okay then bops...update: I am putting up absorbing material overhead, the next drummer who comes in will get the test...come to think of it bops I do have a spare kit in the spare room of my house, maybe I'll bring it out to the studio for a set-up...wish I could kick the darn things without being laid up for 3 days. Only problem is I have a bunch of cheap cymbals laying around, nothing worth a hoot. What's a good cymbal pack, I got my youngest son some ProB*'s to start off with, not real impressive.
If the kid is gonna play, he better have a metronome, and Stick Control For The Snare Drummer, By George Lawerance Stone, as well as the downloadable 26 rudiments from Charles Ludwig, I memorized that chit, and it is nothing but root exercises for endurance and definition, as well as execution PERIOD.
Set em up Joe, I need to set up a business trip in Jacksonville anyhoots for ACOE, (army corps of engineers acronym, -not a DAW thang), I can play the kit to get you levels at least, along the way.

[87PRS]

funny you should mention the triggers with real cymbals, my wife and I 's first CD was recorded like that, the drummer (studio owner) had a set of Rodgers triggered, dont know brain, but it sounded awesome, and I'm still trying to mix that drum sound and can't git it...so maybe some electrics in the studio ain't a bad idea, and the sound would be consistant with what is dialed in, again I have no experience with electrics in my little recording lab.

The drums I have in the spare room (lower line called CB700's) are some I picked up from a church, they were trading them in on new tubs at local music store and I got 'em before they went into inventory, really good buy on 7 pieces for $100...okay sorry, I rant too...common over and jamm sometime.

[Bops2000]

Probably Lynn...
CB 700's are good enough, I will keep you posted on visit.
What size drums, as I may have a few heads that fit?
Ps: I used to play with the Trinity Methodist Church in Lighthouse Point, I was the Rogue though :)
Did it just to keep my chops up - right, 3 years?, must be mad.

[87PRS]

ain't nothin' wrong with keeping the chops up Bops
drums all have new Evans blue hydraulics...appreciate the offer tho.