Delta 1010 vs. Delta 66

[Bupa9048]

Are the Delta 1010 A/D D/A converters considerably better than the Delta 66's. I've heard the 1010 is one of the cleanest best-sounding cards. Is it that much better than the Delta 66. I'm looking at the Omni Studio pack over the 1010 because of price. What's my best option. Thank You from a poor man.

[fastfourier23]

they are the same converters.
if given a choice i'd go for the omni studio for the mic pre's and fx send and returns.

[C9]

Originally posted by fastfourier23:
they are the same converters.
if given a choice i'd go for the omni studio for the mic pre's and fx send and returns.

they don't use the same converters. the 1010 has better converters. the delta66 is a good card though for the price if you don't want to spend as much on the 1010 get the omni.

[knowdoubt]

The 1010 has WAY better converters than the 66. 10dB better signal to noise ration on the AD is no small thing. Also slightly lower distortion. Add to that wordclock & 8 analog i/o rackmountable breakout box + the fact that the Delta 1010 is available at http://bayviewproaudio.com/ for only $490 with free shipping & I really don't see how any one serious about recording could rationalize buying anything less. If you can at all afford it, choose the 1010 over the 66.

[This message has been edited by knowdoubt (edited 03-24-2002).]

[Bupa9048]

I see the 1010 is 599 with a free se2000 mic. And with no preamps the bill keeps getting higher. With my budget I can only afford 400. I hear the 66 is a good card just not as nice as the 1010. How much will a young engineer on a small budget be effected by the apparent differences in cards?

[Whoopysnorp]

Don't worry about it, man, just get the 66. It sounds great; I have one.

[knowdoubt]

Ah, I see Bayview has just changed it's marketing package for the 1010 & are pushing those mic's again. Last time I looked they were selling the 1010 alone at the price I previously quoted & I bet they still would if you contacted them.
I've used & tested both cards & I can tell you that the difference is noticeable & well worth it though the 66 is still a good card.
Look man, you don't have to take my word for it. It's all there in the published specs which are more trust worthy (less biased) than any one on these boards will be. The 66 is a good card & you can do good work with it but the 1010 is measurably better & the quality & feature difference is easily worth every penny difference in there actual end market price. If you can't afford it, that's that but if you could get it for the $490 price your so close to your budget limit it would be a shame & at that price point, value-wise you would be cheating yourself to settle for the 66 (not that the 66 is bad just that the 1010 is that much better). You could start with just a couple of pre's for the delta 1010 or use the Omni Studio. Your original question was - "Are the Delta 1010 A/D D/A converters considerably better than the Delta 66's" for which the answer is most definitely yes. I suspect that's not the answer you wanted because it doesn't agree with your budget. Sorry but my answer is the truth. If the quality difference makes no difference to you, why do you ask in the 1st place???

[This message has been edited by knowdoubt (edited 02-18-2002).]

[fastfourier23]

haha.. everyone is saying i'ts "better" but they can't back it up with relevant evidence...
basic electronics: they both have the ICE ensemble 24/96 chipset for ad/da conversion just look at the cards...

only difference is that the converters on the 1010 are on the rack as opposed to the PCI card on the 66...

not "WAY better", same signal to noise ratio. period

[C9]

Originally posted by fastfourier23:
haha.. everyone is saying i'ts "better" but they can't back it up with relevant evidence...
basic electronics: they both have the ICE ensemble 24/96 chipset for ad/da conversion just look at the cards...

only difference is that the converters on the 1010 are on the rack as opposed to the PCI card on the 66...

not "WAY better", same signal to noise ratio. period

you don't know what your talking about. the delta 1010 uses AKM AK4393 converters, the delta 66 uses AKM AK4524(same as the cport). two different converters. and the delta 1010's are BETTER. go to AKM.com

[Synctr]

...yes, Delta1010 converters are different from 66 & 44... & the convertors are in a break-out box for Delta66 & 44 which lives outside of the computer...maybe FF23 was getting the regular 1010 confused with 1010LT?...

-CT

[knowdoubt]

Originally posted by Synctr:
maybe FF23 was getting the regular 1010 confused with 1010LT?...

-CT

Yes, & maybe, just maybe he's an incompetent fool, not even capable of finding the published spec's readily available from m-audio, period http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif .




[This message has been edited by knowdoubt (edited 02-19-2002).]

[marpix]

I have both, and can say that the amount of distortion that is being discussed here is not something a new engineer will notice. The Omni provides some decent preamps if you are going that route, the Delta 1010 is an awesome piece of equipment and worth the price, but the price does continue to drop. I started out w/ the Delta-66/Omni and when I could afford it purchased the 1010, which is now synced to the other. As far as the A/D converters, you will probably pick up more ambient room noise and ac hum than noise from the difference in these cards.

[C9]

Originally posted by Synctr:
maybe FF23 was getting the regular 1010 confused with 1010LT?...


the delta 1010LT doesn't even have AKM converters... it has simple ass codec's...

[AlChuck]

the convertors are in a break-out box for Delta66 & 44 which lives outside of the computer

No, only the 1010 breakout box has the converters on it. The 66 and 44 have the converters on the PCI card.

[knowdoubt]

Originally posted by marpix:
I started out w/ the Delta-66/Omni and when I could afford it purchased the 1010, which is now synced to the other.

Actually, I've been contemplating doing the same thing, only by adding a 66 to my 1010 which would give me just barely enough tracks to do uninhibited live recordings of our band. With the recent drop below $500 for the 1010 though ..
, was thinking WTF... get another 1010.

the delta 1010LT doesn't even have AKM converters... it has simple ass codec's...[/b]

I'm really kind of disappointed with the m-audios choice of new additions to their lineup. Everything is down-graded specs with just some different i/o combinations/adding couple preamps/eliminating breakout boxes... all down-grades of quality to meet a lower price point. I would like to see something like an 8 in 2 out or 16 in 2 out analog rack mountable converter expansion box of the same quality (or better) as the 1010 for a low cost high quality way for 1010 & 66 owners to expand just their input capabilities. Also would be smart for them to come out with a single PCI card expansion type system like many others, like MOTU & RME or even Hoontec.



[This message has been edited by knowdoubt (edited 02-20-2002).]

[marpix]

I agree w/ Knowdoubt about new Delta products, it would be nice to see something that had solid transparent preamps, say a 1010 w/ micpre's or a 16 channel rackmount w/ 8-10 preamps. I've always been a little disappointed w/ the industry marketing ploy that advertises "10-in, 12-out" and then counts something like spdif as real channels. I for one use microphones and guitars not rca stuff.

[marpix]

OTR I am using the 1010 as a master clock and then use the "SPDIF" in on the Delta 66 for clock input, and then....use the wordclock out of the 1010 to sync up my Layla 20. This works very well except that the Layla is only 20bit vs. 24 for the Delta products. This is the only use I have found for the spdif, and it does work, everything syncs up nicely and this gives me at least 24 tracks for audio input, and who needs all those outputs?

[imitation-music]

what is an omni

[marpix]

Omni=Delta Omni studio a breakout box w/ mic pre's and effects sends used in conjunction w/ the Delta-66 card.

[Bupa9048]

Thanks for the info. I'm selling the Omni Studio on ebay under the same username "Bupa9048". Check it out if you please. I bought the 1010 and I'm glad i did. Thanks

[fastfourier23]

Originally posted by C9:
the delta 1010LT doesn't even have AKM converters... it has simple ass codec's...
*********
LOL,
Ok, now I know you are truly talking out of your ass,
the 1010lt has the ak4524 24/96 converters and ice ensemble, same as the 1010 same as 66 different layout.
the only thing you seem to know about chips is about the greasy ones your stuffing your face with.
so go back to school.
before i pop a capacitor in your ass.
ha


[This message has been edited by fastfourier23 (edited 02-25-2002).]

[C9]

Originally posted by fastfourier23:
Originally posted by C9:
the delta 1010LT doesn't even have AKM converters... it has simple ass codec's...
*********
LOL,
Ok, now I know you are truly talking out of your ass,
the 1010lt has the ak4524 24/96 converters and ice ensemble, same as the 1010 same as 66 different layout.
the only thing you seem to know about chips is about the greasy ones your stuffing your face with.
so go back to school.
before i pop a capacitor in your ass.
ha

[This message has been edited by fastfourier23 (edited 02-25-2002).]

first off you need to shut your damn mouth. second, the delta 1010lt doesn't have akm converters. i know b/c i emailed maudio. get your Sh!t str8 before you act like you know what your talking about.

and the delta 44/66 use the AK4524 converters not the 1010, get your sh!t str8.




[This message has been edited by C9 (edited 02-25-2002).]

[C9]

FROM M-AUDIO
The 1010LT uses codecs, not the AKM converters. Only our Delta 1010 rack unit uses AKM converters. The LT's mic pres (XLR inputs) will accept either line level or mic level signals, and the distinction is made by setting a jumper on the PCI card. So, it's really just an electronic setting on the card, and does not use the DMP2 technology.

JD Mars
Midiman


http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif now shut your mouth

[knowdoubt]

Originally posted by fastfourier23:
the only thing you seem to know about chips is about the greasy ones your stuffing your face with.
so go back to school.
before i pop a capacitor in your ass.

fastfourier23;
http://www.audioforums.com/forums/rolleyes.gif
OK sonyboy, class is now in session.
Your 1st assignment is to go here - AKM (http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/usa/product/audio.html) where you will find the AK4524 (used in Delta 44/66 & if you say so 1010lt) listed under the heading of 'Digital Audio Delta-Sigma CODECs' (key term here is CODECs, aka. "simple ass codecs") http://www.audioforums.com/forums/cool.gif

Your next assignment is to look on that same page under the heading of 'Digital Audio Delta-Sigma ADCs' (key term ADCs http://www.audioforums.com/forums/cool.gif ) for the AK5383. Why...??? Because that is the A/D converter chip I am looking at right now inside the Delta 1010 that I have open on my bench. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/cool.gif

Your next assignment is to click through on the links to the AK4524 & AK5383 & study the vast difference in specs between them & just how superior the AK5383 is to the AK4524, which equates to Delta 1010 superior to Delta 44/66/1010lt. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/cool.gif

As a little bonus to your lesson, it might interest you that the Audiophile uses neither of these, but instead uses the AK4528 CODEC, which is slightly better than the AK4524 (44/66/1010lt) but still not as good as the AK5383 (Delta 1010).

OK, class is out for now. So far your grade is an F. Let's see if you can do a little better on your home work in the future & bring that grade up a little, or at least keep your foot out of your mouth. By the way.., Is that a capacitor in your ass or are you just glad to see me..??? http://www.audioforums.com/forums/cool.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/cool.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by knowdoubt (edited 02-25-2002).]

[C9]

i think the capacitor is stuck in his ass now. knowdoubt you get a A+ with honors http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif see us people with REAL DELTA 1010's know that they are better than all the other maudio cards. for year the 1010 has had some of the best a/d d/a converters.

fastfourier23 go buy a delta 1010 then come back and talk about things that you don't know, o and don't forget to take the capacitor out of your ass... o yea one other thing..
Originally posted by fastfourier23:
not "WAY better", same signal to noise ratio. period

the same s/n ratio...you sure...

Delta 1010
High dynamic range (A-weighted measured): D/A 108db, A/D 109db.
Low distortion (measured THD @0dBFS): D/A less than 0.0015%, A/D less than 0.001%

Delta 1010LT
High dynamic range (A-weighted measured): D/A 101.5 dB, A/D 99.6 dB.

delta 66
Measured D/A specs: 103dB (A-weighted) dynamic range, 0.0015% THD @ 0dBFS.
Measured A/D specs: 99dB (A-weighted) dynamic range, 0.0023% THD @ 0dBFS.

once again your wrong http://www.audioforums.com/forums/tongue.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.audioforums.com/forums/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by C9 (edited 02-25-2002).]

[Sonarcade]

After reading the thread and the spec wars between the various delta cards, I was wondering if there are any real noticeable differences amongst them. What would I be looking for? Thanks for all the info on the convertors vs. codecs bit although that concept is still hazy for me. I was wondering this since I was considering "upgrading" from an audiophile 2496 and mackie ms-1202 to the delta 1010-lt. It's refreshing to see knowledgeable folk around. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

[TeleCarlos]

Xcuse me,

Interesting stuff bout fish and chips here, but my question might be simpler. I only want my sound as hi fi as any trusty tape recorder, my ears will be pleased.

But....if any of you have a good working system based on the Delta66/Omni Io, please give the recipe (mobo make model etc., cpu, driver version...the full monty). I tried.. and tried to get it going w/ my asus a7v/1.2 tbird and no avail. Recently sold the cpu & mobo, kept the Delta.

Go ahead, give the best setup companions for the Delta and I'll be a happy, recording camper!!! I'll prefer one around a P3 please, in case I sell the Delta. It will be a DAW only box, nothing else installed.

By the way, lot of unworking daw's in many forums..... Is it a f****d up industry or what??????

[knowdoubt]

Sonarcade;
Just to clear up any question you might have of the CODEC/converter issue. A CODEC is merely the integration both A/D & D/A converters into a single chip rather than as separate chips for each. This integration of both into one chip makes them cheaper. It's just that the very best converters are generally found separate but that's not a hard rule. The best CODEC's may outperform some mid or low quality individual A/D - D/A converters .

TeleCarlos;
That's a shame. The problem you had with your other system was the letter 'V' as in VIA. Many of the VIA chipset based boards have had problems working with the Delta cards )as well as many other soundcards). You could have kept the Athlon & gotten one of the MOBO's using the SiS 735 or 745 chipset's, like the ASUS A7S333 (Sis 745) or the ECS K7S5A (SiS 735). Those work fine with the Delta cards. If you really want to go P3, the ASUS CUSL2-C is fine.

[TeleCarlos]

Thanks for the advice on the P3 mobo. The CUSL-2c is no longer on the website so I am eyeing the TUSL-2 or TUSL-2c. Can anyone tell me which is better for audio. I know the difference is little, other than the price. I just want it to work appropriately and record home demos, nothing fancy.

So, if anyone has anything negative to say about the Asus TUSL-2 / Delta66 matchup, tell me before I plunge my money on it. I'm trying to go the safest route here, not ultra super duper performance (thou it will be more than adequate for shure). I'll be recording few guitar & vocals, the rest will be vsti's, all based on Cubase 5/32 and Soundforge. Will use win98 or XP, whatever works without bugging the system.

If your Delta66 is working flawlessly with a P3 mobo combo, tell me your setup so I can use it as guide. Thanks in advance to all.

[knowdoubt]

You won't find anyone with a problem with the Asus TUSL-2 / Delta66 matchup. It will work flawlessly. Just always be sure to get good grade memory like Crusial, Micron, or Kingston etc... (none of that cheap generic crap) & a good 300 or above watt power supply (I recommend Antec) & you should be problem free. The Tusl-2 is basically the same as the CUSL-2 only it allows you to use the faster Tulatin processors (which the CUSL-2 wouldn't).

[rfenergy]

The Delta 1010 has some serious problems.

1. It reverses the phase 180 deg, when recording on the inputs at the -10 setting.

2. The word clock in does not work...at all, it is a decoration.

The AKM 5383's are good chips, but a AD/DA converter is only as good as the analog circuit (op-amps, filters, etc.).

If SoundBlaster made a chip with the AKM 5383, I still would not buy it.

The Delta 1010 is an OK , consumer card nothing more, it has serious engineering
problems. There is alot better to be had in the under $1500.00 range. Such as Swissonic,RME.

If you don't believe me just call M-Audio and ask about the phase reversal and word clock in.

out,

rfenergy

[SJW]

Hallo rfenergy,

could you let me know in detail which problems you have experienced with the wordclock in/out of the Delta1010. Is there a driver or a even a hardware problem? Maybe a warranty issue? What was the statement of Mididman support?

Further information to this issue is greatly appreciated.

[Gr8h8m]

rfenergy,
yr not wrong mate! 1010 has "serious" engineering problems.

Along with:
1)Broken Word-Clock
2)Phase Reverse on inputs @ -10dB
I can add:
3)Multiple 1010 use *broken* under XP/2K.

The 1010s audio quality is fine, but that is not enough if the supporting package is seriously flawed.

RME seem to have it right.

[Gr8h8m]

SJW - the WordClock issue is simple. The 1010 has never been able to sync succesfully to an external WordClock source. I've a feeling that this is a hardware issue as this has *never* been fixed and applies to all drivers of all OSes.

[SJW]

Gr8h8m - Your statement: "1010 has "serious" engineering problems."

Unfortunately but in principal your are right! I've to add some further details to your statements witch are bitter reality! http://www.audioforums.com/forums/redface.gif

1) Wordclock: It is impossible to lock/synchronize a second Delta1010 are another device wich is proven to be capable of wordclock synchronization together with the Delta1010. Sometimes it works for a couple of minutes and than its gone for ever!
2) Phase reverse on inputs @ -10dB: Everyone who doesn't belive Gr8h8m should have a look at http://www.geocities.com.ghostofrobotpresent/ for the test procedure to find out if its Delta1010 has the same ridiculous 180drg phase reversal due to poor incompetent product engineering of Midiman.
3) Multiple 1010 use *broken* under XP/2K: It is impossible to use more than 2 Delta1010 in one clean strictly by the book installed PC system for DAW purpose under WINXP for serious production. For instance the actual Midiman drivers 5.10.0.5027 screw up Sonar 2 as often they can. It is impossible to record midi sources on the first and the second card simultaneously even without playback of existing tracks on the first or second card. The crazy thing is sometimes it works for a couple of minutes but after that you have to reinstall the drivers for the Delta1010 and to profile them again in Sonar 2, because Sonar doesn't like to work together with such scrappy hard- and software! It doesn't matter if the two cards are linked together with internal clock, SPDIF or wordclock, it is always the same bitter story - it doesn't work at all!
4) This point is new and was not mentioned: If you are using a second Delta1010 you should try to do the following test for accurate synchronisation. Record a stereo signal on the first card using a simple midi sound source like a square or saw wave in two serarate tracks for 20s. Than you should record exactly the same signal as a stereo signal in a separate track for comparison purposes. After that you should leave the left chanel track on the first card and move the right chanel track to the second card. If you compare the stereo track with the two separate tracks with listening by your ears you will hear a slightly different sound of the two tracks left and right chanel in comparision with the stereo track, or if you don't believe with your original midi sound source. It doesn't matter in wich way you have synchronized your two cards together, its always the same story. They are not 100% synced together.

Facing these proven facts I've purchased two Midiman Delta1010 products which are not in compliance with the Midiman product specification. I will have an interesting discussion with their product support. I've serious doughts that they are capable of fixing all this bugs in this product especially if you keep in mind that this product is more than two years now in the market and bug 1) and 2) seems to be hardware related. http://www.audioforums.com/forums/mad.gif

[SJW]

Gr8h8m - Regarding RME, maybe you can answer the following questions based on your latest experience with RME. Your comments are greatly appreciated! http://www.audioforums.com/forums/smile.gif

1) Which RME card/cards did you purchase?

2) Do you use more than one RME under WINXP?

3) Do you use Sonar 2 with RME? If how does it work?

4) How is syncing of two RME?

5) Do they have WDM-drivers for WINXP? Do you have tested them already?

6) How is the sound of the RME in comparison to the Delta1010?

7) Depending on the model is the wordclock in/out working in the breakout box with other wordclock devices?

8) Do they have a phase reversal in their breakout box?

9) General opinion about RME, software etc.?

[SJW]

Excuse me, the correct link regarding item 2) is http://www.geocities.com/ghostofrobotpresent/

[Gr8h8m]

Hi SJW,

ha, lets not jump the gun!

I have 2 x HDSP & Multiface bundles *on order*, so I can't give you a detailed analysis just yet. As soon as I can, I will. However, I'm not using Sonar2, I've been using Logic and am thinking of moving to SX.
I've seen the system up and running and thats good enough for me.
When I say that RME seem to have it right, I mean in terms of serious engineering solutions, but also in terms of after-purchase service and support. Just check out their site. They are the only company that I know of that details compatibility tests for hardware, that directly communicates to its end users through their own newsgroup etc. They are low-key "spin" and marketing-wise (unlike M Audio), because they seem to have put more of a priority into getting their product-line right.

[rfenergy]

Well, I can't add anything that wasn't said above.

I got M-Audio to give me my money back according to the "defect in workmanship" clause in the warranty.

I have replaced the defective 1010 product with a RME digiface and Swissonic AD96 and DA96. My sound is now pro level (not a "pro-like level") for real, the above combination is delivering the goods.

I can't believe that anyone would sell a product that has such fuked up engineering.

I am so glad to be rid of the beast, It's too bad they can't get it together, the 1010 does not sound bad at all. The problem is everything else. If a company is going to have me beta test harware they should atleast pay me to do so.

Peace Out,

rfenergy

p.s. M-Audio said they are working on a the "problem", they are aware of the "problems" with the 1010. I say they aren't working on jack sh!t, this product has been out for over 2 years and they have know about the phase reversal problem and the word clock in problem for over 1.5 years. It is a hardware problem and no software in the world can fix any of the design problems with the 1010.

[This message has been edited by rfenergy (edited 08-26-2002).]

[SJW]

Hallo rfenergy,

great succuess, congratulations. How did you manage to get your money back from this professional company. What was your actual warranty period? Half a year or ten years or what? You've caught them by the hardware related phase reversal and wordclock issue, right?

How is your experience with RME? Which sequencer are you using?

Thanks for any input!

[Gr8h8m]

Hi rfenergy,
fantastic stuff! If I hadn't already sold both my 1010s I'd be now taking the same route.
I've got 2 x Multiface/PCI and an ADI 8-DS coming at the end of the week. Roll on Friday!

[XenosoniK]

Hmmmm....i wonder what happens when i throw in the STAudio C-Port into the mix...

How does that compare?

-X

[rfenergy]

SWJ,

I have been talking with M-Audio for 3 months about the 1010 problems.
I even gave them a possible fix (time will tell if it works). I think they just got sick of me calling them, the squeky wheel get's the oil. They fianally asked me what they could do for me to solve this problem, I told them, I would like my money back. They agreed.

I am using an Apple B&W G3 with a G4 550Mhz upgrade with DP 3.02. My system is running dam good, and the RME with the Swissonic AD/DA96 is pretty amazing.

I hope they solve the 1010 problems, or re-design it so it works or go out of business. They got cought with their pants down and I would have pursued legal action had they not refunded me. I think it would have cost them alot more if they did not refund me.

If anyone reading this is looking at buying the 1010, I would say, do not buy this product. save up and buy something better. It is not worth it. Buy RME or a Lynx card or Swissonic.

out,

rfenergy

and buy the way, some of my older tracks are at www.mp3.com/rfenergy (http://www.mp3.com/rfenergy)

[Synctr]

wow! thanks for that warning! sorry to hear you've had to deal with such frustration from MAudio...MAudio will get you some I/O to computer, but higher end results can be attained by spending the extra on higher spec/rep gear.

-CT

[recat]

I came to this thread to learn about omni studio. I learned alot. I must say that alot of companies seem to have issues of some kind. I was checking out RME's newgroup, where I blieve the ceo answers some questions. I am not familar with their different models but they seemed to have a number of driver issues they were dealing with.I went to the newsgroup because someone from another forum said most folks seemed satisfied there.It seemed to be that Rme was having a fair amount of driver issues and mixer control issues.Hardware alone won't run the show.I don't have experience, I am just trying to find a quality solution with working drivers.

Wendell

[Sonic Valley]

I've been using the 1010 for a year now without any complaints or problems whatsoever. I do wish however I would have got at motu or something with more I/O options.