MIDI Channel CONFUSION!!

[pumpkin]

Please help!
I've been trying to figure out this MIDI setting all day, but I just don't get it

It should be pretty simple, but I'm probably missing some important concept

I'm trying to connect Logic and a synth

I have ten channels(10 tracks, each assigned to different channel) set up in Logic, but I can only hear one channel during playback at a time

Looks like if I change the MIDI channel setting to 1 at global section in the synth,
only the data recorded into channel one in Logic will be playbacked.
And if I change the MIDI channel in the synth to 2, only the data in channel 2 will be playbacked.

How do I listen to all the channels simultaneously during playback?

Please Please help
I'm so desperate

Thank you so much

(NOTE: the synth is a GM device.
and this is one thing that I don't understand
under the PROGRAM CHANGE in Logic, there are 128 programs to choose from. I learned that this is a standard for GM device. But does that mean that I can't use the internal sound from the synth but one of 128 sound only?)


[This message has been edited by pumpkin (edited 11-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by pumpkin (edited 11-07-2002).]

[Lord Wan]

Well... playing several midi tracks has nothing to do with number of patches ( sound ) the synth has.
What matters is MULTI-TIMBRAL capabilities of the synth. That means that it can play several sounds at the same time, each on a different MIDI channel.

Check the documentation of your synth. If it's multi-timbral, then, maybe you have to switch a global parameter to enable multi-timbrality.
For exemple, on my JV-1010 ( 16 parts multi-timbral capability ), i have to switch from patch mode to multi mode. On my Waldorf micro Q, i have to switch from single mode to multi mode.
Generally, multi-mode has a different way of managing synth ressources like polyphony, effects allocation, etc...

Some synth ( like the JV-1010 ) have a GM mode. It's an other multi-mode where sounds numbering respects GM standard, i.e. sound #7 should be a honky-tonk piano, etc... So in GM mode, when you ask for program number #7, the synth will in fact select a honky-tonk piano sound, even if it has a different number internally. This is usefull to play GM .mid files with the correct sounds.

[pumpkin]

Thanks for the reply
but--
I'm using Triton
It should be MULTI-TIMBRAL
and it was on GM mode

I'm not trying to record different patches with the same melody, but different patches with different melody

I'm still confused
I set one channel for one patch, and how do I play back all of them together?

Sorry, I really don't know that much about MIDI, can anyone help again?

[bombastique]

what midi interface are you using?

here's a couple things to check:

1. make sure the triton is in multi mode
2. on the left side of the arrange window in logic are the settings for each track. you want to make sure that each track with midi data on it is set to the triton (the correct port on your midi interface) and that each track is set to a different midi channel.
3. make sure that the proper sound is selected for each multi-timbral part on the triton. you can set this manually on the triton or by selecting the correct sound in gm mode in the grey box on the left side of the arrange window in logic (the same place you set the port and midi channel).

let me know how these are set and we'll work it out from there...

[pumpkin]

First of all, THANK YOU
bombastique!!

This is really driving me crazy
I know that this should be something simple
but just couldn't get it right
I REALLY appreciate your help

Okay, now,
this is a list of my set up

Triton
Logic Delta
Delta 1010

[the setting on Triton]

Basic Setup ->
Bank Map - GM(2)
Power On Mode - Reset
(another choice for Power On Mode is "Memorize", but actually I don't really know which one I should use. Reset is the default}

MIDI Channel:01
Local Control On: Yes
Note Receive: All
Convert Position: PreMIDI
MIDI Clock: Internal

Program Change is enabled but not Exclusive

On Logic Delta, in order to simplify my experiment, this time I only created three MIDI track

These are the setting for each track

Track 1: Piano
Channel: 1
Delta 1010 MIDI
Prg - checked - 4
Vol -UNchecked- 100
Pan -UNchecked- 64

Track 2: Bass
Channel: 2
Delta 1010 MIDI
Prg - checked - 4
Vol -UNchecked- 100
Pan -UNchecked- 64

Track 3: Drum
Channel: 10 (I read it somewhere that
channel 10 is for drum only?)
Delta 1010 MIDI
Prg - checked - 4
Vol -UNchecked- 100
Pan -UNchecked- 64

and there are also two tracks that are default and I can't erase them - WAVE and No Output

For the Prg, Vol and Pan Settings, the value and status above are all default, I didn't change anything.
I only changed the name for the track and the channel, and the driver name

Then, what I did next was
I go to Triton(on MIDI channel one now) and go to PROGRAM and select "A 001: Acoustic Piano", then press "OK"
Then, I go to Global mode and change the MIDI channel to 2, then go back to PROGRAM mode and select A 022: Acoustic Bass, then press "OK"
Again, I go to Global Mode and change the MIDI channel to 10, then go back to PROGRAM mode and select B 004: Jazz/Brush Kits, then press "OK"

Basicly this is what I did with Triton

Then, I went back to Logic, clicked on drum track, and started recording a short session

Ok, now the first weird thing happened is that the metronome sound becamse the drum sound I selected
Why?

Now I turned it off, and started recording again
After I finished recording, I played it back and everything was recorded fine

Okay, then the next thing I did was go to track 2, the Bass track
and I went back to Trition and changed the MIDI channel to 2
Now, after I changed the MIDI channel, I thought that when I go back to PROGRAM mode, the Bass patch I selected earlier should be there, but the Jazz Kit still remained there

Now, I know that there's must be something wrong with my set up, but I don't know what it is

To experiment, I changed the Jazz Kit to Acoustic Bass anyway in the program mode and started recording again

I thought that I would be able to listen to the Drum I recorded earlier on track three while recording track two, the bass
but I did't hear the drums
only the bass
Now, I tried just a few notes of bass, and it was recorded
but both of two tracks can't be played back at the same time

I did the same thing with track one, and it was the same as the situation with track two
I couldn't hear bass nor drum
It's like I'm recording a whole new song

Sorry for the long post, but since I know nothing about MIDI, I wanted to describe it in detail and thought that it might be easier for you to diagnose the problem


And please let me know if you need to know any other setting that I didn't mention above


I can't wait for the answer

Please help

THANK YOU!!
THANK YOU!!
THANK YOU!!



[This message has been edited by pumpkin (edited 11-10-2002).]

[bombastique]

first off, you're going about it in a roundabout way. if you set the triton to 'multi' mode, you can play back up to 16 sounds simultaneously. in multi mode the triton will accept midi data coming in on 16 midi channels and play a different sound for each. you'll have to consult the manual on how to do this.

so - put it into multi mode and set up each 'part' on a separate midi channel (for instance - part 1 - midi channel 1, piano sound. part 2 - midi channel 2, bass sound, etc, etc.). then, in logic, set each track to a different midi channel. select a track that corresponds to the sound you want to play - in this case, if you wanted to play the bass sound, you would select the track that goes out on midi channel 2. you should then be able to record and play each part individually. you should also turn local control 'off', to avoid a midi loop. essentially your keyboard is both a controller (the keys) and a synth. with 'local control' on, the keys have a direct connection to the synth. with 'local control' off, that connection is disengaged. you use this when interfacing with a sequencer so that the midi data goes out the midi cable, into the sequencer, then back out to the synth part of your keyboard. otherwise, with local control on, you will trigger the synth twice - once when you hit the key and it play it internally and again when the midi note comes back from the sequencer.

hopefully that explains it a bit better - let me know how it goes.

[pumpkin]

I GOT IT!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH

Actually yesterday I couldn't go to sleep and kept thinking about this
I thought that maybe one synth can only have one MIDI channel, and that's why it would only play back on at a time
Then I thought about the SEQUENCER mode on Triton, but I wasn't sure, 'cause I thought that then everything has to be pre-recorded into Triton in the SEQUENCER mode first and then later be combined into one stereo channel to be transfered to LOGIC
but then I was confused because if it were to be combined into one channel, then how do I edit the sound and notes on different patches in one single channel

Now I got it
Thank you so much for the advise
I went to SEQUENCER MODE, and for the first time in my life, noticed a small Ch indicator
(I've only Triton it for a short time. but still, shame on me. )
When I changed track, the channel number changed
I thought that I would try to record it indivisually into Logic instead of Triton itself, then IT WORKED
BOTH THREE TRACKed were recorded and were able to be played back simultanouely

and THANK YOU so much for the explanation for LOCAL off. It was really helpful.

One last question, this is one thing I still don't understand
Why does DRUM have to be in channel 10?
and I know that there's like 128 programs in the program change menu, but I don't understand its purpose
If I want to channel the program, doesn't I just change the patch in the synth, like change Acoustic Piano to Attack Piano, right?

Okay, I found his artical about PROGRAM CHANGE, I'm going to read it now

I'll come back

Thanks A LOT

[pumpkin]

"One way to recall sounds is to use the front panel buttons but you can also do it over MIDI. MIDI provides direct access for up to 128 sound patches"

So do I set up a patch for each channel in TRITON?
Is this function just for convenience?
Is this how it works?

For example, I set A 001: Acoustic Piano in Triton for PROGRAM CHANGE #0: Grand Piano
and set A 065: 90's Piano for PROGRAM CHANGE #1: Bright Piano, and so on

Then if I recorded track one in A001 Acoustic
Piano, the packback would be that, right?
Then if I want to listen to the recorded track in 90's Piano, instead of changing the program in Triton, I changed the PROGRAM in Logic

Is it how it works?

But you know the weird thing here
I haven't selected any patch for the PROGRAM CHANGE here in Triton yet, because I don't know how yet
But I tried to change the program on Logic on my first track, the piano track, and see what will happen
I changed it to 26: Jazz Gt. but the sound was not GUITAR at all.
Is it the default?
Why is the default so different then the name?
Another weird thing now is that I can pretty much change the program to any other number but not 1: Grand Piano or 2: Bright Piano
These two sounds are supposed to be much closer to the Acoustic Piano sound I recorded at the first place

And now, I don't know how to get the Acoustic sound back
except to go back to Triton and reset the program in track one back to Acoustic Piano

Does it mean that once you change the program, you won't be able to go back to the original one unless you go back to the front panel in you synth?

Sorry for so many questions
but if you could provide me some of your insight, I would be GREATly appreciated
THANK YOU SO MUCH

[bombastique]

i gotta be quick on this cuz i don't have much time.

the reason you would select the sound from logic is so that, when you load the song, it will send the program changes to your triton and all the sounds are ready to go, rather than having to select them all on the triton itself.

there are 128 possbible programs because midi protocol sends data in bytes that can handle 128 different messages. so you will see things in multiples of 128 (128 note numbers, 128 controllers, 128 velocity levels, etc.). in keyboards with more than 128 built in sounds, it will have more banks, each bank having 128 sounds.

as for your problem selecting 'guitar' and it not being a guitar - you have to keep in mind that logic is initially setup to use a GM (General MIDI) bank, whose sounds are uniform from one synth to the next. you MUST be in GM mode (or in a GM bank) to have these names and programs correspond. if you want to be able to have all the banks and programs that are in your triton show up in logic, you'll need to get an editor librarian like soundiver.

that's all for now...

[pumpkin]

I checked the Emagic website, but they don't have soundiver for Window
I know that they're sold out to APPLE, so
now, does it mean I have no way to get anything like SOUNDIVER?

The whole thing is just so unfair
I know it's been a few months already
but still
I don't think it's the way to compete
I'd always liked APPLE, but I really don't appreciate they way they do business

"you have to keep in mind that logic is initially setup to use a GM (General MIDI) bank, whose sounds are uniform from one synth to the next. you MUST be in GM mode (or in a GM bank) to have these names and programs correspond. "
but my Triton IS set to GM mode
Although it showed "GM (2)"
Is it different from GM?

Without SOUNDIVER, would it still be possible to record a patch, and have Logic send the program change to TRITON without having to select it on TRITON the next I load the song?

But how do I select the number (the patch?) in PROGRAM CHANGE if it is not the same as the patch in Triton (the one I recorded)?
(THE 128 NAMES don't match anything in TRITON, do they?)

Now I know the purpose for PROGRAM CHANGE, thank you for the explanation
It was really clear

but isn't the name confusing?
if it's the way for LOGIC to memorize the patch I recorded and to send the message to the synth next time I load the song, why sould they name it PROGRAM CHANGE?
Why not PATCH LOCATION or PROGRAM LOCATE
or stuff like that?

Anyway, I guess my main quesion right now is how I set it up with Triton without SOUNDIVER, or maybe there's something else I can use?


THANK YOU

OH, and also, what will happen if I DISABLE program change?
I'll just have to reselect the patch every time I load the song, right?
So, it does sound more convient to use PROGRAM CHANGE, but another question is that whether it remembers all the parameters I had when recording?
Does it?

THANK YOU AGAIN

[This message has been edited by pumpkin (edited 11-11-2002).]

[bombastique]

You CAN have the names in logic correspond to what you have in the Triton without Soundiver - you just have to manually enter them all.

In the Environment window, double click on the object for the Triton - you should get a box that pops up with all the name for the first bank in it. Just double click on any name to enter a new one.

GM(2) is definitely different than GM - it's an extended bank of GM instruments, thus the reason the names aren't corresponding.

Here's something to remember - if you set up program changes in your song, then come back to it later and load that same song, the program changes will ONLY bring up the correct sound if you've not changed anything in the triton. if you edit a sound, or change it's location, it's likely that the sound you used to have selected will not sound the same. The way to get around this is to do sysex dumps for each instrument at the beginning of each song. You can do single program dumps, entire bank dumps or entire system dumps, whichever seems easier and/or more convenient.

If you turn program changes off, then you will have to select the proper sound for each part from the triton when you load a song.

Apple didn't do anything in buying Emagic that MS or tons of other companies haven't been doing for years now.

You said "but isn't the name confusing?
if it's the way for LOGIC to memorize the patch I recorded and to send the message to the synth next time I load the song, why sould they name it PROGRAM CHANGE? Why not PATCH LOCATION or PROGRAM LOCATE
or stuff like that?"

There's a good reason for this - Logic is doing anything other than sending a message to the Triton saying 'go to bank number so and so and patch number so and so'. it doesn't know what's at that particular location - thus the name 'program change'. it's changing the program number of the patch on that midi channel.

Keep in mind that MIDI isn't used for just audio applications - it's can be used for things like lighting or controlling other outboard gear. Thus words tend to be a bit more universal, rather than specific to audio.

[pumpkin]

Thanks for the explanation

I realized that there are so many things I need to learn

Do you have a recommendation for any book or website for me to learn the basic stuff in order to really understand what you said?

I searched for "sysex", but what I saw was this
"SysEx is a free MIDI librarian program for the Macintosh. "
So, I don't think I'll be able to use it since I'm using PC

I searched all night for some similar stuff, this is one thing I found and I downloaded
it, but I don't know whether it's the thing that you talked about.
It's called "The Korg Triton Controller" and I got it at http://www.pryer.freeserve.co.uk/

After I downloaded it, I thought that there would be a manual or something, but there wasn't.
I got really tired yesterday, so I didn't really try it out with Triton last night

Today, I did a few test and made a note on everything I did

I found the G Bank in Triton have the same patches as the 128 list in Logic, so I guess G Bank is the GM Standard Bank in Triton.

One of the test I did was this

SETTING:

On Triton
Track 1 in Triton : G043 Cello (42 in Logic) is selected
Track 2 in Triton : G095 Halo Pad (94 in Logic) is selected


On Logic
Cello - MIDI Channel 1 - Prg Checked- 42
Halo Pad - MIDI Channel 2 - Prg Checked- 94

ACTION:

I recorded a sequence in track one with Cello, and one in track 2 with Halo Pad
(the combination is not good, but I just wanted to test the recording, so I just selected them ramdomly)

The recording were succesful and I was able to play back both tracks simultanously using Logic's Play button.

I saved the sequence and closed Logic Delta, then I turned off Triton.

RESULT:

I turned on the Triton again and reloaded the song.

The data on Logic remained the same, but the patches in Triton are changed into
Track 1: A042 Loop Iteria
Track 2: A094 Percussive Hits
It seems like it only sends the number to A Bank, and have the patch with same number called up.

I don't understand. I was using sounds from G Bank, which is exactly the same as the list on Logic.
What is the problem?
Also, what if I want to record sound from Banks other than G Bank?

Is this where SYSEX come in?
Is there a window version of SYSEX?

THANK YOU FOR ANY HELP

PS
"In the Environment window, ---"
I know that in Logic Audio, there's an Enviroment window, but in Logic Delta, which is the one I"m using, I can't find it anywhere. I don't think there's an Enviroment window in Logic Delta. It's not mentioned in the manual either.
What should I do???



[This message has been edited by pumpkin (edited 11-13-2002).]

[pumpkin]

Also, this software I got came with Delta 1010
I sort of want to upgrade to a version that has more functions, like the enviroment window, so I can figure out the MIDI connection

But since I'm using PC, I know it's not possilble.

What other softwares would you recommend for PC user?
Cubase? Sonar?
What do you think about the Emagic Big Box Special?
It seems like it's PC-compatible

Any suggestion is greatly appreciated
Thank You

[bombastique]

the reason the 'G' bank didn't come up was that you didn't have it selected in logic - next to the program change area there are 2 numbers: the first one designates the BANK the second number the PROGRAM. you'll notice that the program numbers were correct, but the bank was not. go thru the bank numbers one by one until you find the bank that corresponds to the 'G' bank. remember what i said about how you can only have 128 programs per bank - this is a perfect example. there are far more than 128 programs (or patches) in the triton, so they divide them up into banks of 128. you have to select the correct bank and program (patch) number to get the proper sound.

as for which program to get on the PC - all of those would be good bets. i would try them out to decide for yourself, as they all work a little differently. yes, it may take some time to decide, but it'll be worth it, as this is something that you'll be using for years down the line.

Sysex is not a program - though someone may have named their computer program 'Sysex' for various reasons. Sysex stands for 'SYStem EXclusive', meaning midi messages that are exclusive to a particular piece of gear. It's a way of using midi data to control a piece of gear, however it's not 'standardized' from one synth to the next - hence the name.

You may want to consider getting an editor/librarian - www.midiquest.com (http://www.midiquest.com) makes a great one for PC. the editor/librarian will allow you to edit the triton without using it's onboard interface - you control it from your computer (this is assuming they have an editor for the triton available...). the librarian comes in handy when you edit your sounds alot and need to make sure you don't overwrite one that is being used in a song. the librarian stores and keeps track of your patch settings. for example - let's say i'm working on 10 songs and i've edited and stored 128 patches for those 10 songs. my synth only has storage for 128 user edited sounds. now i open another song and need to edit a sound - what do i do? if i edit a sound, then the next time i open the song that uses that sound, it will be different - not good. the librarian will allow me to download all 128 of those patches into the computer, so i can then edit any of them and not worry about messing up a sound, as i can always transmit the bank of sounds back to the synth. i usually will store a library of sounds for each song that i do - when i get ready to work on the song, i'll dump the library to my synth (making sure i've stored whatever i had in the synth currently, in case there was something in it that i edited...) and the sounds are exactly as i left them the last time i worked on the song.
http://musicbooksplus.com/ - has tons of great books on music, production, midi, etc....

[pumpkin]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY

and sorry for the late reply
I haven't worked on this Logic and Triton thing for a while 'cause I got busy with something else.
and besides, I noticed that I could only export the recording in Logic as a Logic song, not mp3 or any other file format, which really turned me off.

I'm seriously thinking about getting other software. I'm considering VST 5 'cause the price is like under 200 bucks. I know they've got SX now, but it's kind of expensive.

Anyway, I'll do a little bit more research on those.

And I REALLY want to thank you for explaining the detail about the patch settings and stuff. Now I have a better understanding of how it works. I believe that these concepts will help me a great deal when I work on my new software in the future. And also thanks for the link. It's a great resource for learning MIDI or recording.

THANK YOU AGAIN!!!!