Dual Soundcard Set-Up

[passerby3141]

I have been having some success lately with a dual sound-card set-up, and thought I would share my experiences here for anyone interested.

I am using a M Audio Audiophile 192 with Mackie's Tracktion 2 for monitoring, and an E-MU 1212M with Sonar 6 for recording and playback.
I have only been using this set-up for about a week and a half, but so far it seems pretty stable. I had to move the cards around on my board to get them on different IRQ's, but that wasn't too hard! Trackition has a check box called "use Asio direct mode", which when disabled, makes the whole thing possible. When engaged, Sonar won't load properly, so I think Mackie had this in mind when developing the software, and it's a feature I am surprissed they don't mention.

With this arrangement, I can use plug ins with less than a millisecond of latency while monitoring my takes, pretty awesome. The E-MU is set to 100 milliseconds buffer, so I get no dropouts when editing and programing midi VSTi's.

My computer has an AMD X2 4400+ CPU, seems like a dual core is appropriate for this kind of stuff.

Does anyone else have any experience with a dual sound-card set-up? What software/hardware do you use?

I am pretty happy so far, hopefully the system will hold up! I haven't heard of too many people doing this, and with the flexibility it offers, I'm a bit surprised.

[Roddles]

HI I use two Delta 1010s in my audio pc without any probs and it is rock solid although the pc is getting a little old now

[tech1]

I've been using a Digi interface (MBox2 or MBox2Pro) along with a "regular" interface on the same system for a long time. I've (separately) gone through a Saffire, FireBox, FireStudio, 8Pre, Ultralite, UA25, 1820, and something else (can't remember, it's been a while), and it's all worked together. There's usually nothing wrong with having multiple interfaces installed, provided you mind you IRQ's and keep track of which is which in the software.

[AndyH]

The clocks on different soundcards are not, can not be, identical. Unless you are using a single clock, possible with many soundcards, the playback and recording do not stay in synch. If you don't have this problem, you setup is certainly the exception. Perhaps your "monitoring" is not the usual case, which is to playback existing tracks in order to record new tracks in tme with them?

[Bops2000]

I would think that two units of the same brand would be close enough on the clock rate to make little audible jitter.
But I kinda agree with Andy, for one he knows quite a bit, and 2. my perception is that tolerances (voltage/whatever) within the components themselves will generate different clock rates, I think we are talking nanoseconds here, Andy?

[oretez]

It is not a matter of same brands or even the relative 'jitter' of any individual clock. To synchronize (time lock) multiple digital converters they must operate from the 'same' clock source. With two devices one can be slave and other 'master'. Daisy chaining is typically not a good idea, so three plus converters require clock distribution strategy (e.g. drawmer or big ben, etc.)

With out synching to same source you will experience not merely offset but 'drift'. Over the course of a three min. tune this might (stress is on 'might') be imperceptible to average listener.

But these issues I'm presenting are a practical concern primarily when you are using multiple cards for simultaneous operations. When you use multiple cards to increase simultaneous number of recorded or playback channels. You can reasonable expect to record via one card and have playback via another without having to necessarily (this depends on cards manfc. & driver set up) synchronize them, time lock, physically (though over the years I have experienced some interesting anomalies, in one combo playback card played at 2/3's sample rate of 1st card . . . this rather obviously is not a 'jitter' problem) and in point of fact system latency between a single cards A/D to D/A operations will be more noticeable then 'drift' among multiple cards for short time spans

But there are drivers and strategies (among various audio card mnfc) that are incompatible. On my 'sun porch' just for hell of it laptop based set up I currently have an aardvark, frontier & on board AC97 (think chip is a cirrus) cooperating nicely. into this hodgepodge I will regularly plug a Zoom H4 (USB) and on occasion a MOTU 828 (firewire) (and/or) f/w vid cam. The frontier & 828 will sync via Adat optical, but Aardvark syncs to nothing so I don't get 14 pristine simultaneous tracks with this set up . . . various cards are used to route signal for different purposes then simultaneous record track count

edit: Oh, actually the aardvark can sync, but it does this via S/PDIF, as it's a 4 channel card this effectively loses a pair of inputs, which would seem to defeat the purpose of multiple cards, but it also has 6 analog outs, plus, even with sync, a digital stereo out all of which can be sync'd with frontier four in 2 out card . . . so on a good day I can get 2mic in, 4 line in, out put a monitor mix plus 5.1

there are cost effective more elegant solutions available and ASIO definitely (defiantly) resists multiple devices which is another wrinkle to multiple cards . . . but hardware in is set up is 7 to 10 yrs old and lets me have a convenience station

[passerby3141]

Well, I am using the E MU for recording and playback, the M Audio is just being used to make Tracktion an effects processor basically. Since one card is handling all the recording and playback, I don't think clock issues will be a problem for me.

[Bops2000]

I learn each day ortez.. thanks

[oretez]

Well, I am using the E MU for recording and playback, the M Audio is just being used to make Tracktion an effects processor basically. Since one card is handling all the recording and playback, I don't think clock issues will be a problem for me.

well, if you're exchanging bodily fluids . . .

if signal processed (including A/D and D/A) by one card is used by the other one, as a rule, needs to have them controlled by a single clock source

there are circumstances where you can 'get by' . . . but it is a far better practice to unify clocks

now if maudio has digital (s/pdif) out you can pass that back to Emu digital in and simply set one card as master, other as slave

the situation I mentioned where onboard handled playback was not for direct monitoring for record (which is handled by monitor input when ever possible)

if you are exchanging data among cards they need to operate via a single clock

[Bops2000]

well, if you're exchanging bodily fluids . . .

if signal processed (including A/D and D/A) by one card is used by the other one, as a rule, needs to have them controlled by a single clock source

there are circumstances where you can 'get by' . . . but it is a far better practice to unify clocks

now if maudio has digital (s/pdif) out you can pass that back to Emu digital in and simply set one card as master, other as slave

the situation I mentioned where onboard handled playback was not for direct monitoring for record (which is handled by monitor input when ever possible)

if you are exchanging data among cards they need to operate via a single clock

like somthing like a hammerfall thing? sorry to invade the post, a non-schooled player like myself, likes to know such things. For one I can do the song and dance to a client, and then rip off youse guys opininions for spare change...
I am kidding of course, but I for one appreciate the discourse, as I said way back, learned a boatload from this site, and us old guys appreciate all the help we can get :)

[passerby3141]

oretez, you are funny! Bodily fluids, hehe.:eek:

No, I did try that, but it sort of defeated the purpose for me. All I was after was getting as low a latency as possible while using plugin effects to monitor my takes. I'm a bit anal, I like to have my monitor sound be as close to my final mix sound as possible while I am tracking. Input monitoring really is the most efficient way to go about it, but I find it a bit dry personally.:D (sorry about the pun)

I just input to both cards simultaneously through thier analog inputs. One of my preamps has two analog outputs (I prefer preamps to mixers as my front-end, for my home self production, 2 of them is all I need). The other I use a signal splitter to obtain two outputs. Then I mix my playback from the E MU and the monitor signal from the M Audio with my inexpensive, but always useful, Behringer mixer. I work very odd hours in the restaurant business to pay my bills, and as a rule, use amp sims for my electric guitar tones. This way when I do a bit of recording at 2 am after work, I don't bother the wife who must work in the morning.

So I guess the short reply is, I am not exchanging signals between cards.

And Bopps, no worries from me, that's why I started this thread, so those in the know could share with the rest of us!:) Thanks oretez!

[ecc83]

Just noticed this and I have posted this somewhere else but what the hey'

For the crack I ran my Ap2496 (stereo pr) and my Berry usb mixer(stereo pr) in Samplitude 8 and I got 4tracks fine! The Berry started a fraction late ref the Ap but this is easily tweaked and then they stayed in sync for as long as we let it run, about 3mins.
Now, you can lock the Ap to external sync via the co ax in, so next I am going to try linking the Berry to the card and see how long it will keep locked for.
The book says you can sync up to 4 2496's and if you have enough pci slots(I'm one short, "$% it) that's 8in 8out 24bit/96k for 200quid! And I bet you'd get a deal for buying 4 Ap's at once.

Rock on

Dave.

[passerby3141]

Have you looked into the 1010lt or the Delta 66 for more in's and outs with that set-up ecc83?

[ecc83]

The 1010lt is well over £200.00 here and the 66 is 6in/6out, which I could do with two more 2496's. Also I have shedloads of outboard gear and don't need a breakout box.

It was just an interesting diversion, nice to know I can do it if I need to but since I am set up only for my musician son, more than two in at a time is not really needed.

I am semi-retired, I only need money to pay for recording kit! So I am strictly what us limeys call a "dabbler", mind you, I have 45yrs electronics and sound experience, tape, triode mixers, PA, theatre sound. Thus I have the time to be an annoyance to the pro's on these forums!

Dave.

[passerby3141]

Well, I have 2 M Audio cards, and even though they use the same driver, they cannot share an IRQ on my system and work. So, if you do need more at some point, you may want to consider some of the other options as I doubt most boards will allow all the PCI slots to be occupied and on different IRQ's.

I wonder why the 1010lt is so expensive in the UK, here in the States, it is about half as much? I could get the 1010 for around $400 new here, that's less than the 1010lt would be for you, doesn't seem right. Maybe it would be best to order one from over-seas, if you ever find the need to.

[ecc83]

Twas ever thus! We Brits get stuffed all the time. Have you seen how much Gates is stiffing us for Vista! (not that I want anything to do with it, I'll learn linux before I give up XP) Sony are also apparently giving Europe a raw deal on the new game box.
In fact I could go 8in8out because my Beringer BCA2000 supports ADAT and all I'd need is an 8 in/out lightpipe and Berry make a good one under 200 so I understand. Dave.

[passerby3141]

I keep coming across people mentioning that Berhinger unit. I will have to check it out at some point myself, although the mic pre's probably aren't all that exciting, they most likely would last a while, and if the extra in's are number one of ones needs, then why not?

I really am surprised to hear of the price differences, and can't believe there is that much of a real economic reason, smells like greed, yuk!

Are there some extra tax's and tariff's? I know that the UK is famous for high tax's as well, but you guys have state health care right? Here in the States you have to have a kid before they give you any viable state sponsored health care.

[ecc83]

Google;behringer ADA8000 review, you should get the Sound on Sound review of this unit. The mic pres are first class in my view in that they are totally neutral and noise free for any normal recording work. No good for the Boston Symph' at 10mtrs and crossed ribbons but a '58 at two feet and a guitar, fine.
(note I do not have the 8K but the mp's are the same on my BCA2000). The unit is less than£200.00 here, call that $200 for you! Berry's gear is aimed at the project (home) studio market, if a desk has to work round the clock 364 days a year or you are going to drag it 10,000 miles a year and let MUSICIANS use it don't by it, but performance wise, one mans' TLO72 is the same as another.....
Yeah, we do get taxed quite a bit, I think there is import duty and also VAT(you call it sales tax I think) 17.5%! And thats on just about everything except food in shops. We do have free health care and as the survivor of 2 mild heart attacks and a VERY nasty bout of pneumonia in the last 3yrs I can say the NHS is brilliant! But looked at cost wise, I worked for 40yrs solid and never cost the state a penny! However, beware, this is not the place to air politics.
Dave.

[passerby3141]

However, beware, this is not the place to air politics.
Dave.


You're right, it's a nasty habit of mine, along with smoking.
I'll save it for the protest songs.

But 17.5%, yikes!

[ecc83]

Price Benchmark.
How much is 20 low tar filter tips? £6.00 here!
Dave.(last one off topic, promise Mod!)

[passerby3141]

Price Benchmark.
How much is 20 low tar filter tips? £6.00 here!
Dave.(last one off topic, promise Mod!)

LOL.
Well, that varies greatly from place to place. Here in Milwaukee, $3.50-$6.00. I was in Chicago last week and my wife paid $8 something. I roll my own, much cheeper, fewer taxes. Last off topic agreed.:)