Floating a Floor...?

[87PRS]

Hey Guys, some may remember my "Got Wood" post of several months back, well my son started framing the new room onto our existing studio and now he has completely dismantled the stucture saving the wood (thank you), we are moving into a new home and I will have a barn...not an ol' wood barn, it has a concrete floor and is metal 28X50, only a couple years old...does anyone here think I need to float a floor or just the walls, the new studio construction will be inside the barn, mostly just double wall layout and one sliding glass door. I've also been thinking about an elevated control room?? Ceiling height is now no problem up to 24'. I'll be using alot of J Sayers ideas here, with angles, absorption and reflective surfaces, maybe just float a drum riser? thanks

[sabianq]

very envious here!
sounds like you have a great project going there.
where abouts are you located?

you have to post pictures

I would suggest that you do not need to float the floor as the floor is resting on the ground and is made of concrete, the purpose of floating a floor is to Isolate the sound from the rest of the structure, being on ground level it seems to me that the structure will have no impact on the transmission of sound through the rest of the building. but then having a concrete floor, you need to look at LF absorption and reflection. normally this is not an issue with such high ceilings. I would not float the floor because this could cause issues in the future when the floor becomes unstable due to age and has a tendency to creak and moan as you walk around on it. A lot of research has gone into Floated flooring over the past few years and most of it suggests that the best systems are separate poured concrete slabs coming in first and then a single concrete slab coming in second, floated floors can be at the best a nuisance and at the worst illegal.

IMHO spend your time, money and energy on frequency reflection and acoustics.
And if you are building a Vocal or instrument studio room, then build up your walls with multiple layers of gypsum board on staggered studs.

you can cover the floor with 1/8th inch neoprene and then cover that with your flooring.

Cork is coming out as a great sound absorption flooring solution.

I second Sayers! His forum for studio design is very cool and informative.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/Pages/Studios.htm

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php

[ShaneC]

I disagree. Floating the floor has the advantage of seperating low freq's which travel easily along solid surfaces such as concrete. Although, it may not be necessary to float the whole studio, the drum room and especially the control room would definately benefit from that kind of isolation. My biggest concern for your space, if it was mine, would be the metal exterior.

[87PRS]

thanks guys, both of you have viable thoughts regarding my situation. i will post a pic soon sabianq, still at present address, next time we go out to new home site I'll take along a camera, i am located in NW Florida 60 miles north of Panama City, MF.

Floating the whole floor of the studio is out of the question, it would cost me too much dinero, but i do think on the same lines as shanec, in floating the drums and keeping the space lively. My present drum room is deadened with absortion materials eg Auralex, and carpeting and I don't like the sound I am getting, so i'll start with more wood this time and work that way.

A vocal booth, hum, I've also got a vocal booth in present studio, but I'm leaning more toward using the drum booth or live room for voice over, as my vocal booth has turned into a storage compartment, and vocals are being done more in the live room. I.m thinking drum room floated for this.

not to much concern over metal structure as it will not be part of the studio, think of it as sliding your studio under a carport, just to keep the elements away. the studio will be seperate structure with-in.

so...what do you all think about wood laminate flooring? OR tile, even ceramic tile? wood for the drum room floor (floated) and walls, and tile floor in the live room. right now I have control/mix station in live room with guitars, keys, and i am use to mixing this way, with drums isolated. having a raised control room separate from live room looking down at players would be cool.

I'm taking glass out of present studio, its just a 40X40, but man i paid 100bucks for it, double laminate, so it is going. i found that using an 8" joint knife I can actually just scrape the Aurelex off the wall, leaves glue look, but removes it with-out damage.

back to topic....floating the drum room, and the control room should give me better response and frequency control? what if I just floated a drum riser? sabianq there's is no reason to be envious, man I am in a big ol' mess :)

[sabianq]

LOL

I love big messes, it means something is getting done.

you should look at cork as an option for flooring.

I just laid a tile floor in my studio (for the wet bar my wife wanted).
talk about some serious resonance. but i did lay carpet pad and a thin industrial burber carpet to contrast the tile. this is all covering a concrete slab.

before i laid the carpet, it sounded like i was inside of a spring reverb.
after the carpet was down, things tightened up quite well.

and for sound isolation from the outside, two windows need to be isolated, a big picture window and a smaller window.
i am using a piece of 3/4 inch lexan hinged to cover and lock aginst the smaller window and will be removing the large picture window and replacing it with 4 inch glass block.
this should do well for sound isolation and help with security.


i was browsing around the john Sayers forums and found this for you.
there is a stupid amount of information here with many different opinions on floated flooring.

to much for me to dig through.

check it out.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=839

[ShaneC]

having a raised control room separate from live room looking down at players would be cool.

Another benefit is having the wiring run underneath.
The metal concerns me because it offers virtually no sound inhibition and when there is rain, it produces an aweful noise. It seems to me that you'd have to build another layer in between the studio and the metal exterior.

[vulcan_dc]

dudes, i think shane does have a point here.... i am thinking as well... a loud drummer and there could be one hellava resonance build inbetween the studio and the metal barn... dont know if it would start to interfere within the studio.... hmm.... <in deep thought>... ;)... 'might have to put in some sub absorbtion stuff in between the two structures.... or build another structure inbetween like shane says.....

hey, you know... this could be good discussion with dudes at sayers or with Ethan Winer...

regards...

[GZsound]

There is actually a very easy inexpensive way to float a floor. Laminate flooring, for example "floats" on a layer of plastic bubble material that costs as little as a dime per square foot.

I put down two layers of this product, mine was called Pergo Quiet Step underlayment, and then layed tongue and groove plywood over it to effectively float the floor.

You could easily just install laminate flooring over the underlayment, which is how it's designed to be installed, and you would have effectively "floated" the floor.

Laminate flooring is very reasonable cost these days and easy to install. And you are supposed to leave a gap around the edges anyway..which effectively isolates the floor from the concrete.

Concrete WILL transmit low frequencies and is not a good flooring material.

[ShaneC]

There is actually a very easy inexpensive way to float a floor. Laminate flooring, for example "floats" on a layer of plastic bubble material that costs as little as a dime per square foot.

I put down two layers of this product, mine was called Pergo Quiet Step underlayment, and then layed tongue and groove plywood over it to effectively float the floor.

You could easily just install laminate flooring over the underlayment, which is how it's designed to be installed, and you would have effectively "floated" the floor.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/865647/SRNJQ-burns.gifExcellent...

[vulcan_dc]

oh yeah... thanks for sharing this GZ....

i need to have one of these...

[GZsound]

Thanks.. !

I have discovered that being on a tight budget leads to all kinds of innovative solutions.

I floated my walls on neoprene carpet pad.. quite inexpensive. I used resiliant channel to hang sheetrock on all walls and ceiling.. quite inexpensive.

What I did was talk to building contractors that build big dollar condo's and ask them how they got good sound isolation between units..

[87PRS]

thanks GZ I like the Pergo idea, cost effective and would create a beneficial "floating" system and isolate the floor from walls. I'm still trying to visualize the impact the recording room structure would actually have on the metal surroundings. Even at 16 foot ceilings there would be a 12 foot air gap between both "roof" structures, wouldn't this air space give some isolating qualities?? The rain....indeed would wreak havok on the metal roof...most cost effective is don't record when its raining ;) rain in Florida comes down hard and fast, most of time accompanied by lightening strikes, not even a good time to turn the gear on. A structure over a structure with-in a structure seems pretty expensive, and I was thinking of sometimes putting the guitarist outside in the barn to get that "live" sound haha. What have I got myself into this time. All the input is helpful, thanks alot!

[Bops2000]

...... was thinking of sometimes putting the guitarist outside in the barn to get that "live" sound haha. What have I got myself into this time. All the input is helpful, thanks alot!
LOL make sure He/She wears a metal hat, now I know what to do with 'virtuosos'...
by the way, I use a home depot bought laminate floor,
did it for looks and sound go figure-a lucky guess
I found it to be about 200 bucks for a 10 by 14 room..

[jmail]

Watch-out for the goats, iffen yuh put the guitarists out in the barn... They like goats...

[87PRS]

dang jmail ...all the guitarists I know love women and smoke, oh an a col'one :cool: ps no goats aloud...unless its made by Pontiac! edited

[87PRS]

started packing the studio up, I did save the carton that the Ghost was shipped to me in, now if I had a forklift (only kidding) and the recorders' boxes, everything else is being re-boxed, aurelex wedgies from walls, ceiling for protection, live racks are full, going to move studio in our van when time comes to go....where did all these cords come from, man... this is it I ain't never moving again....stressin' me out. :(

[ShaneC]

Reminds me of when I rewired my patchbay. It ended up taking 2 days. :cool:

[Bops2000]

started packing the studio up, I did save the carton that the Ghost was shipped to me in, now if I had a forklift (only kidding)...... :(
It sucks, I find myself spending more time on wires, than doin the "recording" thang....

[87PRS]

yah, I am looking forward to have a "better" studio layout and hopefully "sound", but all the cords are ridiculous, ya know, there are some that i don't even remember putting there...must be that cord monster ha. I had my studio layed out so all i had to do was minor patching or microphone placement, etc and level & hit record, it will be mine again.....

Bops if ya'd stop trying to "re-build everything", you would have more free time to record..jmho LOL
it may sound kinda weird to some, but the day I got the Ghost it was delivered by this semi-truck who backed up into my drive and unloaded it with an auto lift...now that's a mixer haha

[ShaneC]

That's why most high end studios run wire underneath the control room via an access panel.

[87PRS]

absolutely right...won't be able to run any wires underneath a concrete floor, but having the studio sub-framed in the barn i'll have better access to routing outside of walls, and I plan on having wall plug-in access in the live room and drums, lotsa soldiering coming up...btw i found an insulation that can be wire hung in the barn, this is promising.

what part of LA you live in, I was raised there, played all the clubs out there in the 60's, i know long time ago:)

[ShaneC]

what part of LA you live in, I was raised there, played all the clubs out there in the 60's, i know long time ago:)
La Crescenta, near Glendale and west of Pasadena.
You played here when it was better. The club scene really sucks now. It's all pay to play. The promoters are the pimps who really don't promote anything except their own pocekt book and the bands are the unfortunate whores with slim gig options. As a result many clubs in the Valley have closed, and the Sunset Strip has lost its sheen.

[87PRS]

sorry to hear that Shane, man in the sixties the strip was the place to play, lotsa clubs looking for good bands, Gazzari's (billed with Eddy James and the Pacific Ocean...now Edward James Almos TV Star , Witches Brew, Hullabaloo and Whiskey A-Go Go (Doors), played all these and Pandora's Box before it burnt down. In the Valley, I think there was a country place called the Palimino Club...that was big. I was raised in Venice, Ca. and in the sixties was a turning point from the bee-bop Beat Niks to Hippydom. Still at that time a great place to live...haven't been back to Ca. since 76' my wife and I visited my folks, sure wasn't the same, even then.:(

[ShaneC]

I played Palamino's the week before it was closing. It's too bad, since was like a historical landmark.
Bill Gazzari was an interesting cat. I met him about a year before he died. I think after his departure is when things really went downhill on the strip.

[dcwave]

Slightly off top - Shane - I played LA and the strip 88 to 91 - we loved pay to play - we made lots of money and since we showed the promoters that we could pack a club, our costs went down. What was real cool was that the people we sold tickets to were from the Inland Empire (San Ber, Riverside, Mo Valley, Hemet, Banning, etc).

Back ontopic - I just floated a floor with the pergo type stuff - don't beleive the hype about easy - 4 hours of back breaking, knee trashing work. I'll post pics later today or tomorrow.

[ShaneC]

Slightly off top - Shane - I played LA and the strip 88 to 91 - we loved pay to play - we made lots of money and since we showed the promoters that we could pack a club, our costs went down. What was real cool was that the people we sold tickets to were from the Inland Empire (San Ber, Riverside, Mo Valley, Hemet, Banning, etc).

Back ontopic - I just floated a floor with the pergo type stuff - don't beleive the hype about easy - 4 hours of back breaking, knee trashing work. I'll post pics later today or tomorrow.
Pics would be cool.

I've played in bands that pack it no problem on the first night, and I've played in bands that have to work their nuts off just to bring family and friends. No matter how you slice it, Pay to play sucks! I hear ya though. You always have to pay extra at first and you get a crappy time slot on a Mon. or Tues. My main beef is the promoters pretty much have monopolized the club scene here in L.A. It's very much like extortion. It used to be performers and club owners would make money on the gigs. Now, it goes to the Promoter, Owners, and if anything is left over, the band might see some action. The only way to ensure, payment is to merch.

[dcwave]

I hear ya shane - our 1st gig at the Whiskey cost us $8.00 per ticket - min purchase for the 9pm saturday slot was 200 tickets. We sold them for $10 we were lucky - we had people who hustled for us. But by the time we moved from the IE, we were already packing Spanky;s, Monopolies, The Green Door and we could throw a "rave" with about 2000 kids at $5 per head.

Anyway - here's a pic from a few minutes ago, I am blessing the floor as done. I still have some treatment, cieling and floor trim, and i will be soldering the cable plates tomorrow.

http://www.dcwave.com/images/studio/trackingroom-01.jpg

Sounds pretty good in there, a little "ping" when clapping in a spot or two but other than that pretty neutral and natural sounding - hoping to track a female next week to test it out.

[ShaneC]

Looks very nice!
I was thinking about the pergo flooring stuff today. Does it allow for any buckling when you set heavy items down, or, is it pretty solid?

[GZsound]

Slightly off top - Shane - I played LA and the strip 88 to 91 - we loved pay to play - we made lots of money and since we showed the promoters that we could pack a club, our costs went down. What was real cool was that the people we sold tickets to were from the Inland Empire (San Ber, Riverside, Mo Valley, Hemet, Banning, etc).

Back ontopic - I just floated a floor with the pergo type stuff - don't beleive the hype about easy - 4 hours of back breaking, knee trashing work. I'll post pics later today or tomorrow.

Yeah.. I think the operative word was "inexpensive", not "easy".. It took me a couple of hours just to get all the bubble underlayment down properly with the seams tapped, etc. Don't even ask me how long it took to lay in four by eight sheets of one inch tongue and groove plywood...aargh.

And I had a drummer in a band back in the 70's that used to play with Dick Dale in So Cal.

[dcwave]

Looks very nice!
I was thinking about the pergo flooring stuff today. Does it allow for any buckling when you set heavy items down, or, is it pretty solid?

Well...when I walk on it I can feel it float but the seams, once locked, do not buckle.

when I do the control room floor I am going to do something I didn't with the tracking room - level the concrete. I have a dip that was unnoticable until I put the floor down; the piece right in the entrance floats about 1/8 in above the floor. So I glued it down to the plastic and then used the end piece to keep it from coming up.

Also the stuff I used was very cheap Lowes 97 cents per foot - about $23 per box and what you see is 2.5 boxes used.

[Bops2000]

Bops if ya'd stop trying to "re-build everything", you would have more free time to record..jmho LOL
[[/I]

you are absolutely right, it's a freakin dominant nature that i developed, perhaps as a 'survival mechanicism' from my day gig, where everything at work has to be gnats ass and precision, yet redundant in procedure and I am very cool with that.
At home, in the studio, I keep pushing the system to perform at extremes, (perhaps sub-constiously to the point of failure), I failed the "if it aint broke don't fix it test" many times. Traits I have identified, and have to work on indeed. LOL I just sat on the "recording couch"
for a moment....

[87PRS]

Bill Gazzari was an interesting cat. I met him about a year before he died. I think after his departure is when things really went downhill on the strip.

sorry to hear Bill died, he was what we called a "loud talker" haha, but an influential person on the strip, we played 6 nights a week got $125, in 68', one of my main gripes is musicians playing free, but everyone to his own, musician's haven't gotten a raise since I started playing out, lets face it the bar band still makes 50-75$ per a night and if ya get into a 100-150$ a night gig you really think you've done something, so much for the AFM over the last 40 years...15 minutes of fame just won't cut it. i know things are alot different now for musicians and studio owners.

Dick Dale was one of the Kings of Surf Music, I saw him play at P.O.P. Pier Santa Monica (also tore down) when I was 14, he mesmerized me, double pickin and fast, went home and learnt Miserlou.

dc, your floor looks real nice, nice lookin' axe also. so let me get this right, its laid over a bubble wrap type material? .97 per foot is more than 10cent a square foot, some contrast in cost here, .10 squared would be a dollar, hum. Still very reasonable for a great looking floor.

Bopps I am still waiting for a working demo of that exco-plex design you are developing...:) The only thing electrical I do is change tubes in an amp and soldier, not real intuitive...if you can do it and get something outta it, more power!

[dcwave]

Laid over a thin foam sheet, plastic on one side as a moisture vapor, the foam on top for the cushion. THis is the stuff I bought - pretty cheap
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56323-30029-D1411WG&lpage=none

[jmail]

Nice floor dc... the guitar looks like it might be cluttering the room, though. Perhaps you'd like to put it somewhere out of the way, like in my "studio"? hmm??? I've got lots of room for guitars (and mics & cable & reverb units, etc.) I've got an older, "glued" version of the Armstrong floor. After 8 years of use in the kitchen, (water & all), it's just starting to show some wear. I'll unplug the refridgerator and record in my D-35 there at times. With the family room just off the open side of the kitchen, I get a nice reflection off of the floor, that adds nicely to an acoustic guitar recording. I've not recorded my wife's voice there yet - perhaps I will...

You guys talking about "paying to play" and I thought "we never had to do that..." and then when dc mentioned the "200 minimum", I thought "Wow, we *did* have to do that..." back in the early 80's in St. Louis, MO... and here, I thought it was a privilege to play at places like that... lolol Boy, were we nubes, or what? After truck rental, roadies, food, etc., we figured that including the rehearsal time, we made like $1.14 an hour most times back then... lolol Sometimes I miss it, but mostly not - especially my *back*!!!

[dcwave]

I hear ya about the back, jmail. I did my 1st gig a couple of weeks ago (since 1991) - man my back was killing me after two 45 minute sets.

[jmail]

See? That's another reason to send that guit-box over here... It's too *heavy* for an old man... lol

[GZsound]

Bill Gazzari was an interesting cat. I met him about a year before he died. I think after his departure is when things really went downhill on the strip.

sorry to hear Bill died, he was what we called a "loud talker" haha, but an influential person on the strip, we played 6 nights a week got $125, in 68', one of my main gripes is musicians playing free, but everyone to his own, musician's haven't gotten a raise since I started playing out, lets face it the bar band still makes 50-75$ per a night and if ya get into a 100-150$ a night gig you really think you've done something, so much for the AFM over the last 40 years...15 minutes of fame just won't cut it. i know things are alot different now for musicians and studio owners.

Dick Dale was one of the Kings of Surf Music, I saw him play at P.O.P. Pier Santa Monica (also tore down) when I was 14, he mesmerized me, double pickin and fast, went home and learnt Miserlou.

dc, your floor looks real nice, nice lookin' axe also. so let me get this right, its laid over a bubble wrap type material? .97 per foot is more than 10cent a square foot, some contrast in cost here, .10 squared would be a dollar, hum. Still very reasonable for a great looking floor.

Bopps I am still waiting for a working demo of that exco-plex design you are developing...:) The only thing electrical I do is change tubes in an amp and soldier, not real intuitive...if you can do it and get something outta it, more power!

The difference in cost is between the two materials.

The UNDERLAYMENT (bubble pack type material) was ten cents a foot when I bought it for my studio..

He is talking about the cost of the FLOORING.. And under a buck a foot is a great price. My laminate flooring in my house cost me $1.25 a foot.

Understand the difference?

I actually used one inch tongue and groove plywood for the flooring in my studio which I floated on the ten cents per square foot underlayment.

[87PRS]

Uh duh...yah unnerstan it now, yukayuk and Lowe's is my favo-rite shoppin' store, of course perused and kidding.

referring to the back "problems" don't know how many of you...maybe jmail relates to this, but back in the day if ya didn't have a real Hammond B3 in the band you weren't squat, and even with the four-handle dolly it took 4 band members to haul it around>>?? Ah the good ol' days, no wonder we all have bad backs, and with the 100lb amp and those LP's strapped on 4-6 hours a night, 5 nights a week...makes ya wanna start drinkin or something.lol
wouldn't, couldn't do it again...
jmail, did you have the kitchen door open to get some of them cricket background noises haha hey...we use to have band practice in the kitchen
Ya'll got me sold on the pergo type florring, w/rubber underlay, this is the way I'll go in d'room for sure, maybe some tile (ceramic)??? drumm riser is out, good suggestions, and reasoning, thanks guys.

[GZsound]

Ahhh... the "good old days"..

Four kids, all under 16 loading the band equipment...drums, sax, guitar, UPRIGHT bass, into a 1955 Cadillac convertable. Had to leave the top down regardless of rain, snow, sleet, day, night..whatever. It's the only way the bass would fit.

Driving to community centers to play for five bucks each and all the spaghetti we could eat.

1963

Then came the B3 and Leslie for three years..had to buy a hearse.

[spam]

Hey fellers.

Glad to see this thread, as I decided a while ago I was going to put down laminated flooring in my basement, and didn't know if it was good option for a studio environment. Sounds like it is. Done several hardwood floors, so this pre-fab stuff seems like a breeze...if I get a day off work, that is.

[87PRS]

good to see ya spam...work!...yikes! at least you have a job, good deal.:)

...been down the road in a hearse, cruised Chi-town in 71'...and they all look haha...then moved up to a bus for 4 years. Seriously, my parents always had a band when I was kid,"country-western" and my mom played the "dog house" I can remember them loading up the equipment in a 49' Cad with the neck of the double bass sticking out lol...man GZ ya must be an ol' dude too.

guys I went to Lowe's yesterday and checked out this wood laminate flooring, and although they did have the .99 cent a square foot stuff I fell in love with the $4.00 sq. ft. laminate, it's like a 1/2" thick real wood, and this is what I'm going to use in the control room for sure, and if I can afford it the drum room...nice flooring and resonable. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

GZ....I forgot all about the "Leslies" what a box! Our organ player had a 145/147?? he traded it in for a 900 in 71' it was like 2 smaller ones stacked but wasn't a wood cab, remember these?

now if we can just get dc to decide on who he is going to give that heavy old guitar too.....:D

[jmail]

I got 1st dibs on the ole-man guit-box!... Leslie 147 was a beast of a wood-laminate - on wood... Heavy. The 900-whatever it was, was a sickly-gray plastic bumpy crap, glued on top of an even bigger wood cabinet. One 80 pound beast on top of a 110 pound beast. But at least it had rolly wheels (which didn't lock, and could cause all kinds of havoc on-stage, but that's another story... lolol). We played in a basement somewhere one night, where the stairway down wasn't wide enough to get 4 guys on the outside, so we took two volunteers, shoulder-to-shoulder below the B3, and basically "dropped" it down to 'em... They lived, but could sing quite a bit higher after the ordeal. Pants kind of sagged in the middle afterwards, too, but the girls thought they were studs (until they spoke...).

Get yourselves a throw-rug (careful of materials...) to roll-out on that nice flooring when you want a more-dead sound. Be careful, also, about it "slipping" on the surface. Especially when you're carrying one of those 160 watt combo tube amps... Broken back *and* tailbone... 'Course, if I'd spent a few bux on an ole-man amp carraige, with retractable handle and wheels...

[GZsound]

good to see ya spam...work!...yikes! at least you have a job, good deal.:)

...been down the road in a hearse, cruised Chi-town in 71'...and they all look haha...then moved up to a bus for 4 years. Seriously, my parents always had a band when I was kid,"country-western" and my mom played the "dog house" I can remember them loading up the equipment in a 49' Cad with the neck of the double bass sticking out lol...man GZ ya must be an ol' dude too.

guys I went to Lowe's yesterday and checked out this wood laminate flooring, and although they did have the .99 cent a square foot stuff I fell in love with the $4.00 sq. ft. laminate, it's like a 1/2" thick real wood, and this is what I'm going to use in the control room for sure, and if I can afford it the drum room...nice flooring and resonable. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

GZ....I forgot all about the "Leslies" what a box! Our organ player had a 145/147?? he traded it in for a 900 in 71' it was like 2 smaller ones stacked but wasn't a wood cab, remember these?

now if we can just get dc to decide on who he is going to give that heavy old guitar too.....:D

In our band in the 60's we had a cut down portable Hammond B3 and Leslie that was made for us by Norm and Conn Sundholm.. The SUNN amp guys. They were neighbors of mine, Norm played bass for the Kingsmen.

But in the late 60's I played in a funk band and we hauled a B3 and 147 Leslie up stairs, down stairs...all over hell. And in the mid seventies, my full time touring show band had a B3 and TWO Leslie's.. So I have paid my dues carrying that particular equipment.

And yes... I'm old. But still playing in my show band nearly every weekend. I think 47 years of playing music has kept me alive..

[87PRS]

the Sunn amps were pretty good in their day, the Kingsmen cut of "Louie, Louie" what can ya say, its an American tradition lol.

I'm glad to see some ol' musicians on the board who've paid more then their share of dues. Its really interesting that we all have similar tales of the road, and this probably could have been aother thread on its own, but this is as good as any place to remember ol' times...I started singing in mom and dad's band when I was 6, pass the piggy around the audience for tips, that was 51 years ago and I agree Mark, it keeps us alive and "feeling young". Congratulations on still gigging every weekend!

jmail, thanks for the heads-up on the throw rug, I've got a nice area rug that'll look cool in there. We played a gig in 72' on Rush Ave in Chicago "The Store", the stairs going up to the stage were so narrow that we had to haul the B-3 up the front of it, 8ft high, we were all holding our breath that night.....Flight of the Rat! Bar sold 78 quarts that night, a record, and the bottom of my mic stand had like 20 shots of tequila sittin' there, the guys would actually lift the waitresses up to place the drinks on stage, blew my mind-what a night!

[GZsound]

the Sunn amps were pretty good in their day, the Kingsmen cut of "Louie, Louie" what can ya say, its an American tradition lol.

I'm glad to see some ol' musicians on the board who've paid more then their share of dues. Its really interesting that we all have similar tales of the road, and this probably could have been aother thread on its own, but this is as good as any place to remember ol' times...I started singing in mom and dad's band when I was 6, pass the piggy around the audience for tips, that was 51 years ago and I agree Mark, it keeps us alive and "feeling young". Congratulations on still gigging every weekend!

jmail, thanks for the heads-up on the throw rug, I've got a nice area rug that'll look cool in there. We played a gig in 72' on Rush Ave in Chicago "The Store", the stairs going up to the stage were so narrow that we had to haul the B-3 up the front of it, 8ft high, we were all holding our breath that night.....Flight of the Rat! Bar sold 78 quarts that night, a record, and the bottom of my mic stand had like 20 shots of tequila sittin' there, the guys would actually lift the waitresses up to place the drinks on stage, blew my mind-what a night!

Well, I'm only a year older than you are...58. I don't count the years before I started playing my sax as a part of my musical career. I actually started playing the horn in 1959 and my first paying band gigs were in 1961...if you can call getting five bucks and all the spaghetti you can eat "paying" gigs.

It is nice to have lots of memories that were all made possible by music.. Playing for 8,000 folks on several occasions while opening for Sonny and Cher, The Dave Clark Five, Rascals, Them, Jan & Dean, Sam The Sham, etc. Playing in Guam, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Hawaii, and all over the US and western Canada.. and the fact I am still doing it and have been playing pretty much constantly since that first band in 1961 certainly doesn't make me any big deal, maybe just too stupid to stop.

[87PRS]

man GZ...you backed some heavy 60's artists there, plus the overseas and still jammin', that's a nice career... I had a friend who went to Nam to play for the troops and unfortunately never came back alive. I dunno...i guess i included the younger years because of the memories, a kid getting $18 by passing the pig, singing "Blue Suede Shoes", and "Sixteen Tons" was big bucks haha, but my really first semi-pro gig was in a 4 piece surf band (yes, we had a sax player:) ) we played in front of a super market, $20, $5 bucks a piece (no spagetti LOL), most of the big concerts I played were for seventies headliner groups...and No it doesn't make us a big deal, but it does make us ol' musicians. I don't agree on the "stupid" part, it takes some fortitude to do what you have done, we all know what a head jamb bands are in the first place...and to be able to have stuck it out all those years is an accomplishment. There are non-playing people who fantasize about your (our) lives, and personally i wouldn't have changed anything, well, maybe the "make it rich" part LOL.

[GZsound]

Thanks for that..

Since this is a "floating the floor" thread, let me include the subject in the discussion.

We see so many threads these days like "how do I start recording and make professional CD's", or "I have a computer, how do I get the perfect vocal part", etc. In other words, with technology available today, many folks think perfection is just a mouse click away.

I have seen session files with forty tracks of a lead part. Just pick the best note, or phrase and assemble the "perfect" lead. Same with vocals, drums, etc. and zap! instant perfection.

Except, to me, it isn't perfect anymore. It's sterile. The first goal should be to practice your craft.

Now.. as to floating a floor. I built my first studio in 1972. Since that date I have built three more studios. I had no idea how to float a floor or even that I needed to float the floor until the last attempt at building my current studio and that was five years ago. I learned. I read everything I could get my hands on. I talked to builders that built super expensive (and very quiet) condo's..etc. I knew I needed to get the drums out of the vocal mics, the bass out of the vocal mics and reduce foot taps, etc. but I had no idea what I could do on a budget.

In other words, you should never, ever stop learning and never quit trying to increase your abilities to do something musical better.

Unlike the TV commercials, when it comes to music, the only thing I have learned in my many years of doing music is this: There is no "easy" button, and there is only one way to get to Carnagie Hall.

[Bops2000]

[I]Bopps I am still waiting for a working demo of that exco-plex design you are developing...:) The only thing electrical I do is change tubes in an amp and soldier, not real intuitive...if you can do it and get something outta it, more power!

I have narrowd it down to two machines..
both Akai 330's, just rebuilt them, sorry folks it,s a passion thing..

[87PRS]

is that your baby in top right of pic?:)

[Bops2000]

is that your baby in top right of pic?:)
Cute, no that is a doll, the wifey collects them.
Here is a case i am building for her..
If I can get her to sell them, I would have plenty of room for all these tape decks......

[Bops2000]

I have narrowd it down to two machines..
both Akai 330's, just rebuilt them, sorry folks it,s a passion thing..
never mind one of the akais died, so in retrospect to the floating floor thread, may I add a 70 pound reel to reel anchor....capacitors and all... lol
GZ - muchly impressed dude, we may have crossed paths, perhaps, if anything that "who da fk are you" look in my competitive days of the long past...

[GZsound]

never mind one of the akais died, so in retrospect to the floating floor thread, may I add a 70 pound reel to reel anchor....capacitors and all... lol
GZ - muchly impressed dude, we may have crossed paths, perhaps, if anything that "who da fk are you" look in my competitive days of the long past...

One never knows.. I did play a short stint at the Foxfire lounge in Ocala, Florida back in the late 70's.. Maybe YOU were that guy......naaa..

[dcwave]

Man you cats are some old farts ;) :D Talk about generations - playing for those great bands of the 60s - my first paying gig was in 82 - i was 12, opening for the Dead Kennedy's - one of their last shows I think. Had a punk band called Paint Your Dog - I was the baby. I had 3 chords, a red les paul and the truth! :D

[jmail]

"Da Truth", man... DC, you're a pup! (Let's see... 12 in '82, that makes you... hold on now, I'll get this... it's got "30" in the answer - I think...) Maybe you can keep that guitar after all, in that room with the floating floor (had to throw that in there so we didn't go "off-topic"... tic). Wow, '82 with a red Les Paul... Was it a Custom? Sorry, I miss my Les Paul...

Bopps, don't forget to check the run cap on that 70 pound floating-floor anchor!!!

[dcwave]

"Da Truth", man... DC, you're a pup! (Let's see... 12 in '82, that makes you... hold on now, I'll get this... it's got "30" in the answer - I think...) Maybe you can keep that guitar after all, in that room with the floating floor (had to throw that in there so we didn't go "off-topic"... tic). Wow, '82 with a red Les Paul... Was it a Custom? Sorry, I miss my Les Paul...

Bopps, don't forget to check the run cap on that 70 pound floating-floor anchor!!!

It makes me 37 in January - But its not the age, its the milage!.

It was a Standard IIRC - but I painted it red - blood red. I miss it too - had it, my ricky and my ac30 stolen outta my apartment in Phoenix in 87.

I'm gonna be floating a floor in the control room in a couple of months.

[jmail]

Yes, the mileage... "... candle burnt-out long before the legend ever will..."

[vulcan_dc]

I had 3 chords, a red les paul and the truth! :D

ROTFL.... :D :D :D .... good one..... ;) :D

[dcwave]

ROTFL.... :D :D :D .... good one..... ;) :D

Glad you caught that. ;)

[87PRS]

dc...visited ur website, and saw that you are a member of the Society...just to show the generational "gap" ....I joined ASCAP in 1968. How 'bout you?

I was wondering if the control room you are going to float a floor in, is the same as pictured under your "Studio Services"?

Now, shouldn't truth be spelled with a capital "T"?

[dcwave]

dc...visited ur website, and saw that you are a member of the Society...just to show the generational "gap" ....I joined ASCAP in 1968. How 'bout you?

I was wondering if the control room you are going to float a floor in, is the same as pictured under your "Studio Services"?

Now, shouldn't truth be spelled with a capital "T"?

I actually am a recent member of ASCAP; I was a memeber of BMI from about 85 to sometime in the early 90s.

Yes the control room I'll be floating a floor in is the one in the picture.

[Bops2000]

It makes me 37 in January - But its not the age, its the milage!.

It was a Standard IIRC - but I painted it red - blood red. I miss it too - had it, my ricky and my ac30 stolen outta my apartment in Phoenix in 87.

I'm gonna be floating a floor in the control room in a couple of months.
It is the RUN CAP, dc, on all the machines, I am searching for said run caps, as they ar circa 1968, and a lotta electronic folks
out there seem a little "duh" on the capacitor config.
BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS, I bastard-ized (chopped out capacitors out) from one machine to another and have some bold clean analog tape output going on, a light at the tunnel fer sure, also, gettin pretty good at tape alignment, tape sonics, as far as 2, 4 track, to actually purchase an alignment tape is just plain stupido, .
So far looks like ukraine, russia has the parts i need, just need to establish a trusted goto, and after this excersise is complete folks, Bops Studios, will have a boatload of 2 track machines available for those 'purists"
I rest my ass, woops, -case.

[jmail]

Bopps, I don't remember if I've directed you to either of these before, but they're worth a try, especially the Vintage Texas fellow on angelfire (btw, that's not his "homepage" there, but rather the index)...

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/vintagetx/index2.html

[vulcan_dc]

so... i had this room with basic treatment from the past 3 years and done nothing much with it... i just used it to store all the mic stands and stuff , with a whole lotta moth balls.... ;) (ahhh... the stench....) LOL

after reading this thread i finally did this room up for the drums.... frankly speaking i did not have much hopes this would work, but after i got this going, i am pretty impressed... :)... the room seems to have come together...!!! i have some good warmth show up.... and that seems to have cleaned up the early reflections a lot....!! so, i'm mighty thrilled... :D LOL

work still in progress though.... hopefully soon i will be able to do a test run with a drummer in there and check what really happened... ;) :D :D

Cheers...

[jmail]

Is that a "floating floor" in there, so we stay "on topic" here, mister? lol - tic, etc... What's the ceiling height in there, vulcan_dc? Overall dimensions? Looks nice, btw. Have fun with it. Also, what kind of wood is that?

[vulcan_dc]

oh yeah... its a floater.. :).. but a little different from interlocking wood tiles though... i have a 2 inch rigid foam thing.... which is cool... does not sink... on them i have large thick wood veneer sheets... there is still work to be done.. like a frame and stuff to secure the floor... the walls have veneer sheet reflectors (which need to be framed as well)... i was trying to see what i can get out of this place before we do things permanent....

the room height is the problem here... 11.5 feet one side and slopes to 10.5 feet to the right... 19 feet length and about 11.5 feet width... i loose a feet in absorption...(the room already has panel traps, floor foam, carpeting, movable baffles to cut the room, etc.. which i did 3 years ago).. the adjoining room is the dead room, which is heavily padded with panel traps and there is a vent as well... so there is no resonance build, like in a closed untreated room...

the height might be concern though.... ;).. but then, there seems to be something here (i think... LOL)... all will be revealed for sure when i put a drummer in there.... so... ;) LOL.. :D

cheers

[87PRS]

hey dc, man for putting up some wood and foam on the floor and ceilings its lookin.....awesome, and the tilted ceiling should actually be of benefit in the sound recording department, most articles I have read say to have un-even ceiling surfaces and room demensions...how are you going to secure the floor for a drummer, is it stable as is? Nice Work and you have shown what this thread is all about!:) more pics!

[vulcan_dc]

oh, the floor is rock solid on the foam... no shakes / floats .... so on my trials i am just gonna ask the drummer to set his kit on it and play... and then do the framing if needed...

i'll take some more pics and post them soon...

regards..

[itsplayed]

Nice room DC, I can easily picture my drum kit in there.....:D

I like the idea of a floated floor using laminate flooring in the studio....I have put it on the list!

[87PRS]

after looking at the pic that vulcan posted it looks like the wood panels are floor underlayment?? cool...what would be real nice is to have some MP3 clips here of JUST "live" drums being recorded in your rooms, may be something to ponder....I've got several drummers I could weed out and re-mix for this kinda sampling...Bops I know ya got a kit, itsplayed...anybody else record live drums? hey vulcan when do you plan on "testing" your room?

[vulcan_dc]

hey steve.. thanks...

oh BTW, yeah lawson, large 4 X 8 sheets, 1 inch thick... these are many sheets of veneer stuck together to make a plywood board... they are heavy and don’t bend... the rigid foam is 2 inch thick... synthetic stuff.. as the boards are large, they distribute the weight evenly over a large area on the foam and that helps it stay stable without appreciable sink/float... i am about 160 pounds and there was no notable sink when i walked on them.... (however trials with a the entire drum kit will reveal the true picture.. ;) )

the idea here is to put the drum kit on the deck and keep all mic stands off it…. ;) … so there is quite a bit of R&D to happen before anything gets recorded… LOL… :D

i am not sure when this experiment thing is going to happen... :( ... hopefully soon... i will post pics and details of what happened, on this thread...

best regards

[87PRS]

thanks for visiting our website purple beast! :eek:
looking forward to some demos, keeping the stands off the floating floor is a great idea are ya going to hang them from over head, use long booms....good job...btw ur website is under construction, did ya know that? :cool: haha

[Bops2000]

Dharm, looks cool, would like to hear a kit in there, I would suspect go with some thin crashes in there...
How are you going to mount the kit on the ceiling for the Panterra stuff ?
can't wait, man this stuff is cool !!!

[Bops2000]

after looking at the pic that vulcan posted it looks like the wood panels are floor underlayment?? cool...what would be real nice is to have some MP3 clips here of JUST "live" drums being recorded in your rooms, may be something to ponder....I've got several drummers I could weed out and re-mix for this kinda sampling...Bops I know ya got a kit, itsplayed...anybody else record live drums? hey vulcan when do you plan on "testing" your room?
Heres an mp3 I sorry bout the reverb, can't seem to get rid of it...(old file) BUT it's drums folks !
nevermind-- I can't attach a mp3 file to this post, go to soundclick I guess

[vulcan_dc]

yeah... long booms might be very very necessary.... i have a couple... so gotta see if they work... else i need to make a cage or something... :(

hey.. thanks for pointing the website out... :D :D ;) its been like that for quite some time.... LOL... there was this fan of a band (who did the their website) who did some pages for me.. they were very nice.. but i thought that theme was more appropiate for a rock band's webpage.... so.. i'm a bit stuck now.. LOL... :) i will work on a new one soon...

thanks bops.. there seems to be some warmth here, so i hope the cymbals will not sound thin... :)

cheers

[vulcan_dc]

I would suspect go with some thin crashes in there...
!

ahh... i know what u mean now... sorry i didnt catch it the first time... ;) :o ...
yeah... so u suggest thin crashes.... cool... i will try them out...

regards...

[87PRS]

and....some 1973 Ziljian New Beat HH's... and I think Tommy Lee has an ol' cage for sale that he used when he played in the "Crue" LOL ;) :D :D

You are welcome Dharm (your name goes here) on the website, we gotta look out for one another's images :cool:

Hang the booms from the ceiling, mount snare and kick stands to walls, this is cool, its gonna look like a giant spider consuming the dumass drummers....whoops sorry about that, I am ticked, got 2 different drummers kits in the studio and can't git them to hit a lick...Red Forman sez "dumasses"

[Bops2000]

and....some 1973 Ziljian New Beat HH's... and I think Tommy Lee has an ol' cage for sale that he used when he played in the "Crue" LOL ;) :D :D

You are welcome Dharm (your name goes here) on the website, we gotta look out for one another's images :cool:

Hang the booms from the ceiling, mount snare and kick stands to walls, this is cool, its gonna look like a giant spider consuming the dumass drummers....whoops sorry about that, I am ticked, got 2 different drummers kits in the studio and can't git them to hit a lick...Red Forman sez "dumasses"

Make sure you paint the drummer blue

[87PRS]

Using drummers as crash test dummies :eek: Splendid idea, especially coming from a stickman.

has anyone tried using 1X6, 1X8 or even 1X12's in a floating floor system? per board/sq feet seems cost effective.

[87PRS]

there's been a lot of good advice and comments on this thread, and it has led me kinda back to my original thoughts of having a drum riser, only the riser would be on 1/2" neoprene covered with joined planking say 6'X8' and not connected to anything...absolute free floating...vulcandc good ideas man...only thing is connecting the free floating floor to adjacent structure or securing to original surface...this would transmitt sound, no????...now I am thinking 1X12"X8' hardwood, connected together with rafter brackets flat sanded/stained/polyurethenedand flipped over onto a 6X8' piece of hard 1/2" neoprene...?

[vulcan_dc]

if the deck wobbles/shakes, then stablise that by using supports to the main structure, by rubber dampners..... the deck essentially floats on foam... so would 1/2 inch foam be enough..?? i think u would need more...

cheers

[GZsound]

Since this is pretty much what I did with my drum area..

I recommend NOT using planks at all. You need density to eliminate as much sound transmission as possible.

Why not lay down the neoprene and put one or two layers of 5/8ths particle board over it?

On top of my floating floor, I put commercial grade felt carpet pad, commercial grade level loop carpet, another layer of felt carpet pad and two layers of 5/8ths particle board to make an eight foot by six foot drum area.

Keep in mind that you may have mic stands on the "riser" and you want them to be as isolated from drum resonance as possible too. A plank floor would resonate much more than a more dense floor.

[87PRS]

good input, vulcan and Gz....first the neoprene, it isn't foam, and on many of the other build sites it is recommended for floating a floor/walls due to its density (its very dense material) so it shouldn't allow any vibrations to transmitt, and the particle board is alright and inexpensive, but I'd rather use wood, although more expensive the 5/8-1" plywood would be my choice for a sheeting material, I don't think there would be much resonance using 1/2" neoprene and 1" wood/ or particle board, this seems like it would be dead space layed directly over concrete floor?, and carpeting is just a drummers convenience to keep their kits from scooting all over the place:D , but it does muffle the sound of a space. Wouldn't 2) 1" 4X8's (connected) be heavy enough to stay in place on their own?

[Audiodude]

This is a very long and interesting thread. I'm going to move it to the Studio Design& Construction forum, but I'll leave a redirect so it's still easy to find...

[GZsound]

good input, vulcan and Gz....first the neoprene, it isn't foam, and on many of the other build sites it is recommended for floating a floor/walls due to its density (its very dense material) so it shouldn't allow any vibrations to transmitt, and the particle board is alright and inexpensive, but I'd rather use wood, although more expensive the 5/8-1" plywood would be my choice for a sheeting material, I don't think there would be much resonance using 1/2" neoprene and 1" wood/ or particle board, this seems like it would be dead space layed directly over concrete floor?, and carpeting is just a drummers convenience to keep their kits from scooting all over the place:D , but it does muffle the sound of a space. Wouldn't 2) 1" 4X8's (connected) be heavy enough to stay in place on their own?

The neoprene would work fine. I used neoprene to float my walls. And also the one inch plywood would work well also.

My studio floor is 1 1/4" tongue and groove plywood sheets floated on laminate flooring type underlayment (plastic bubble sheets).

In sound isolation, density is your best friend and I would use the most dense material you can find. My studio doors are made from 2" MDF which is a higher density particle board.

You may refer to speaker manufacturers. They either use MDF or multi ply heavy duty plywood to restrict cabinet resonance.

And the carpeting on the drum riser is certainly a convenience for the drummers, but it also keeps the drums from gouging your floor over time, and can add another layer of isolation for mic stands.

I have my drum overhead mic "stands" hung from the ceiling over the kit.

[vulcan_dc]

1" 4X8's (connected) be heavy enough to stay in place on their own?

that is what i need to check here as well.... ;) I propose to get a drummer here soon and check it out.... the floor does look very stable... i dont think i would need to connect them... but then only time will tell... ;) ... i guess its the same for you too.... do a trial.... :)

regards

[whitelightaudio]

I would definately say to float the floor, have it raised by about 1 foot in the control room and the drum room. Low frequencies travel easily through solids. In fact all sound travels better through solids, and especially the lows. So you dont want any interference coming up through ur concrete. As for the metal walls, generally not a good starting point but if they are very well insulated and you have second "inner" walls throughout it should be ok. Try with JohnLSayers yeah, loads of ideas there. Remember, NO parallel walls, NO standing waves, go so far as to have your ceiling slanted and pack in shed loads of insulation. Its much easier to make a dead room live than a live room dead, so make it dead from the start. It'll be interesting to see

[87PRS]

wlo, thanks for the tips...wood or concrete, now thats hard to say...wood boxed in makes a boominess thats hard to get rid of, while concrete is more solid it doesn't seem to carry sound as much, but what choice is there, one or the other and I am going with concrete, and try to isolate the drum stage as much as possible, my drum rizer will be only a couple inches off the floor, and yes, a room with-in the metal room is the only option=insulation. Sayers forum is where I got my info for my present studio, and it will all come into play this time around only better I hope. Along with the walls not be of same dimension I plan on having the ceiling in a baffle type layout, using daigonals, and built-in wedges of different sizes across ceiling to disrupt ceiling waves and at least 12 foot height...plan so far, more comments are welcome.

My experimenting on this dc is a long way off, the bass drum kick should put the proof in the pudding...slam it!

[vulcan_dc]

ok... i had a friend over and i asked him to pick up a guitar and play something in the new space... ('will do the drums later here, i'm a little caught up.)... he plucked a few old strings on a bad guitar (i think he bastardised a 4th string with a third or something.. yuck... sorry about that, he ran out of strings i guess.. LOL) ... anyway its a SP-B1 at about 3 feet from the acoustic, touched with an omni and a dynamic (close)... i just hit the record button, straight into the roland mixer, no compression...

steel strings... (he should have played the nylon...) so be warned, there are some harshies on the top and some real nasty playing... ;) :D :D

cheers...

http://download.yousendit.com/F8E07BC11BB28D7C

p.s: use 'monkey's audio' to explode the ape file to a wav..

[vulcan_dc]

ok ... heres a another one i found in the pool today.... i had asked him to accent the string hard every now and then to catch the space... (i should have miced this sterieo.. LOL... )...

he is a heavy breather and the mic caught that too.,.. sorry about that.. ;) ... the room is warmer than before... but drums here might be an entirely different issue though... LOL... :o :p

http://download.yousendit.com/8C0BE3AA1E69BB71

[87PRS]

vulcandc...sorry man I don't have the "monkey":p and being on dial-up "still" (in the woods):( would take me 5 hours to download hahaROFL:) :D Mac file? anything more conventional? like MP3, MM, Real? Yikes...I gotta get into the 21st Century!!:eek: Help!!!!

[vulcan_dc]

Hi,

http://www.monkeysaudio.com/files/MAC_399F.exe

download that and then use it to uncompress the ape files...

BTW i'll do some drums and host it up here later... this sample is bad... i just yanked it out of the pool just for the heck of it... so dont worry about it...

cheers

[87PRS]

yep...tried to download and file came up as "corrupt file"-no worry mate, I'll just wait.