Difference between Sub and Bass Amp

[The_Star]

Hi... I am a music player in a church. Now we have two jbl EON speakers for our sound reinforcement. I feel that we need more power for the sound system. We don't have bass amp and also subwoofer. I am a bit confused the difference between subwoofer and bass amp. Since we have limited budget. Can you guys recommend which one should i buy first? Thanks

[Audiodude]

A bass amp is typically speaker with a built-in amplifer (or a speaker and amp in seperate units) to amplify the bass guitar on stage (like a guitar amp, but for bass). It's not part of the sound system.

A subwoofer is a loudspeaker integrated into the sound system which only handles low frequency information. Its input is filtered using a crossover and it is usually wired into the mixer's main outputs, though it is occasionally fed by an aux send.

If you want more power and low end for the sound system, you want a subwoofer. If you just want to make your bass player happy, get a bass amp.

[SEELEYJP]

hello.........we have a similar situation at out church.........first , if your bass player runs directly into sound board , unless he has an active bass it is not gonna sound good , plus your gonna muddy up the vocals in the monitors with his bass........best thing to do is get a decent bass amp , something like the hartke kickback (small and tight sounding) , ...that way your player has an amp , which has all the eq settings and gain etc for sound shaping and he (and anyone else onstage) will hear the amp like a monitor , then run the line-out of the amp to the mixer.........your sound guy can dial in more bass (for the audience) thru the JBL's if needed.........if you dont get enough bass still(most likely not) your gonna need a sub or two.........which sub to get and hooking it in the system can be tricky too.........post another for that

JON

[The_Star]

Thanks for your suggestion guys.... If I decided to buy bass amp, do you have any suggestion which one? and if I decided to buy subwoofer, do you have any suggestion also? the room is about for 200 people... Thanks

[SEELEYJP]

hey.......check out the "hartke" "kickback".....it is a bass amp that has a angled cabinet.......that way the bass player can point it up at himself as a good monitor and it has DI outputs (to mixer).....there are a few other amps like these , check @ www.musiciansfriend.com , for a sub you might want to check out a powered sub (subwoofer with amplifier built in ) these are great because you dont have to worry about buying the amplifier because it is built in , and the amps that come with the powered subs are the best for its application (comes with all the nessesary bells and whistles).......subs are best in the corners of a room , the walls are important for boosting the output.........(the manual will explain all that)....... check out @ www.musiciansfriend.com Yamaha MSR800W 15" Powered Subwoofer..................or at www.samash.com , check out
Samson DB1500A 15" Powered Subwoofer or QSC HPR151W 15" Powered Subwoofer

[Matthew Skinner]

Try posting on the site below as churchs have special concerns which need to be thought about instead of just putting together a rock and roll setup. Post a full list of the gear you use and what type of style your church is and where it wants to be in the future and other churches can give you advice.

http://www.church-sound-forums.com/

Also in most cases the best sound is not attained by placing the subs in the corners of the room, in fact the sound improves as you move any speaker especially subs away from walls and corners. Keeping all speakers time alined will result in huge jumps forward in sound quality and feedback rejection. These things for a church should be a much higher priority.

[DERV0627]

Hello....i have a question that's been botherin me for a few weeks now. We just bought a new bass amp for our church worship team, and the old bass amp works fine except for the stereo input where we connected the bass....it has an XLR imput that works fine and i was wondering if we could use that one as a subwoofer for the main sound system we have:confused: , instead of puttin it in the storage and let it go to waste...anybody with any suggestions? i'll appreciate it. :D

[87PRS]

Hello....i have a question that's been botherin me for a few weeks now. We just bought a new bass amp for our church worship team, and the old bass amp works fine except for the stereo input where we connected the bass....it has an XLR imput that works fine and i was wondering if we could use that one as a subwoofer for the main sound system we have:confused: , instead of puttin it in the storage and let it go to waste...anybody with any suggestions? i'll appreciate it. :D

DERV you didn't mention what kind of bass amp you have wattage, size speakers etc.....I don't understand about the stereo input for a bass guitar, I have never seen a bass plugged into a stereo in, but it may be possible, most bass guitars are simply a single 1/4" plug in cord from bass to amp, I think some Music Man basses had an XLR connect....stereo inputs are usually reserved for keyboards. If the amp has an XLR input which is a balanced line in, this may work as a powered sub, depends...best bet is to plug it in and test it out, if it sounds good use it. Try using it from an auxillary out, feed all the bass instruments to that aux channel ie bass guitar, kick drum. It never hurts to experiment.

[DERV0627]

i think i didn't explain myself too good..the stereo plug wasn't wat i meant..i meant the 1/4" plug. Im not really sure about the wattage...but the amp is pretty big...when we turned it all the way up it shook everythin inside the church...the church is medium sized.....anyways....i'll try it out and see how it sounds....i just wnated to kno if it WOULD work....thanks alot

[87PRS]

Welcome to the audioforums DERV0627...let us know how that set-up works (or not) with a bass amp.

[DERV0627]

nope it didn't work..it sounded awful! i think im just gonna get a subwoofer.....and even if it was possible..i really don't have the time to play around with it until it sounds good....thanx anyways every1

[woofersus]

hey all, I'm brand new here but thought I'd chime in. The reason it didn't sound good, is that a bass amp isn't really designed to reproduce low frequencies efficiently. A bass amp uses full range drivers because a bass guitar produces a range of frequencies. They are well suited to the low sounds of a bass, but it generally won't reproduce the lowest sounds of the bass guitar. Ever notice that the best bass amps actually use smaller drivers? There's a lot more to bass guitar than rumble. Subwoofers extend much lower and most don't reproduce sounds above 400hz or so very well. Almost all instrument amplifiers use full range drivers and won't sound very good as a full range PA. (some keyboard amps are basically powered 2-way PA speakers however)

[sabianq]

hey guys,
just wanted to clear some things up.

a sub woofer or sub cabinet for a sound reinforcement system is designed to reproduce and reinforce frequencies below 200 hz,

you need 3 things to make a sub frequency system work with your existing reinforcement system

first you need a dedicated amplifier.
this amplifier is nothing special, but a high quality amplifier is essential to producing clean high power bass frequencies.
http://www.robclarkdj.com/html/Equipment%20page4_files/Image17.jpg
in general the amplifier is run in bridge mode.

in front of the amplifier, you need an active crossover, you will be sending this a line level signal that is a composite of the whole signal from the mixer.
http://www.parkaveelectronics.com/images/big/xr2001.jpg

the crossover will let you select pass filters frequency, by using a crossover, you will eliminate the distortion caused by having all of the frequencies going to the bass drivers.

then last, you need the cabinet itself which is usually an exponential horn loaded with one to multiple 10 - 15 inch drivers like the EAW LA400
http://www.eaw.com/frontrow/LA400_PHOTO.jpg

this is a good augmentation for a small venue sound system.

So what does the Bass player bring?
well, the bass player has his guitar,
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11303428/Tobias_Bass_Guitar_6_String.jpg

then he has his bass head
http://www.ampandspeaker.com/images/lg_yba200.jpg
which is the amplifier and other signal bending circuitry in it like EQ, and other neat stuff.

this is what the player connects his guitar to. this is considered to be a part of the instrument as with out this, the bass player is only playing on part of the instrument.
then he has his stack which is connected to the head.
http://www.drbasscabs.com/images/Rx_212-115_stack1.jpg which is also part of the whole instrument.

so in essence, an electric bass is the instrument, head and stack.
the player cannot reliably plug his guitar into the mixer and expect it to sound good as the head and stack are what really form the true bass tone.

in general, the bass stack is sufficient to fill the space with enough bass to be heard in a relatively loud mix so no extra reinforcement is really needed unless the area is big, then it is a good idea to reinforce the bass player.

the ONLY way to do this is to place a microphone in front of the stack and then route the signal through the mixer to the mains.

[woofersus]

The EAW LA400 is great for a budget sub, and easily toted around because of the integrated wheels and handle. Highly recommended for mobile dj's. I would disagree however, that it's a typical design. There are lots of high end subs that use a simple front loaded 18. The LA400 is rather unique. (in a good way :))

[87PRS]

the EAW looks to be a bass reflex cab, probably rear loaded...we used this type cab design alot back in the day, but most "typical" subs nowadays are front loaded...the defining factor in the bass amp not working for DERV is the "amplifier" built into the bass amp, not the bass speakers. I'm sure the cab design of the bass amp (whatever kind it is) would lend to the quailty of the sound, but if you have ever (i know ya have) bought raw speakers then you know selecting from PA and Bass rig specified sytems are usually an all in one selection....meaning they work well with pa or bass application.

[woofersus]

If I recall the LA400 is a folded horn design with a single 12 in it. (been a while) Fairly remarkable the amount of sound it produces. Doesn't throw as far as one would want with a full on concert, but great for dj's and small clubs.

[sabianq]

yea, i do agree that the folded horn design isn't normally the the norm, as front loaded cabs are lighter and cheaper, and can be just as loud given the efficency of newer voice coils and speaker design.

however, the efficiency of a driver is much improved if there is a horn on the front of it. it is like taking your hands and cupping them around your mouth like a megaphone.

which is why horn loaded tweeters are louder than the tweeter itself.

[Harper]

I presently have a Crate BT 220, which has 1x15" speaker in it. I run a compressor pedal through it trying to improve things. It did, but I was still hoping to improve the over all depth of sound and delivery; if not the bottom end.

I was hoping to investigate a subwoofer for it or getting another 15" cab or even one of those 2x15" extension cabs. I really don't know which way to go.

I've appreciated reading all the entries so far, but was wondering if you all have any recommendations for this particular issue?

[woofersus]

It's really all about the sound you're after. I've seen people add a sub to their bass rig, but I'd argue that you don't really need sub bass on stage. (the FOH engineer will hate you at shows) You have to ask yourself what you aren't satisfied with in what you currently have and then decide what the cause is.

Adding another 15" will just give you the same thing only louder. (assuming it's the same driver) If you want to change the character of the sound add something different. More definition and sharper attack will come from a 4x10. Deeper smoother response on the low end will come from something bigger. I've seen a few decent cabinets with an 18 and a 10 or two, but that's not really an add-on type item. My personal preference is a really nice 4x10 or 8x10 because I like sharp crisp bass guitar and I work primarily with rock music.

Take your bass to a music store and demo a few different things and see what you like the best. Demo something way too expensive too, so you'll know what you're comparing against. There's no right or wrong when it comes to your own instrument. Make it sound how you want. It's your art. You may find you just don't like your current amp that much. Swapping may as efficient as tacking on another box.

[Harper]

I was looking for deeper and smoother with more growl. I take your points. Thanks for the reply. I chose the Crate because of RCA/headphone jacks, mainly and the good to great reviews I found early on for something of that wattage.

It was great because I practiced along with tracks I dumped onto the IPOD - through the RCA and maintained my marriage by using the phones...

Maybe I should look at a new rig and keep the Crate for home/practice.

In lieu of that, what would be the names of some good 18s I could look at? Ampeg has one on their site, but I can't find one anywhere and there aren't any reviews I've found straight away.

The reviews on the different sites are all over the map for the few of the other names that had 18s that I've found. The local Guitar Center didn't have any last time I was in.

Thanks again for your time...

Best

[87PRS]

I agree with the 4X10 or 8X10 cab set up for bass guitar amps. I used 15' and 18's back when I was playing on the road, over 35 years ago, and the improvement in sound on 10 inch speakers is awesome.

My son bought an Ampeg SVTPro6 tube head, and a SVT 1,000 watt Ampeg 4X10 cab, expensive rig over 2 grand but it is all headroom and rocks. Plus the super low switch puts the rumble out there. Best bass amp I have ever heard.
Here's a pic of his rig...the speaker weighs 100lbs and the head weighs a 100lbs, it is heavy in all aspects haha...good luck in your search.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/82bobber/theampeg.jpg

[Harper]

I might have to rethink the cab situation. I've been avoiding the smaller thinking I wouldn't get the deeper, richer tone.

If I were to keep the Crate 15", 220 watt amp for a while - what would be a workable 4x10" cab for that application in your opinions?

Thanks for the info! This is great stuff...

[woofersus]

18's have never been common. I know Peavey used to make a cab with an 18 and a 10 in it. I don't usually recommend anything made by Peavey, but that's PA, so I don't know about bass/gtr stuff. I looked up your Crate, and I actually remember working with one before. It's better suited to a jazz sound. Not very deep and doesn't have much growl. It's more about the midrange. I would probably look at getting a new rig rather than tacking on extra cabinets. I know it's not my money I'm throwing around, but it doesn't make sense to have multiple combos on stage. You should move to a separate head if you want to mix and match.

On that note, seriously, try out a nice ampeg 4x10. You'd be surprised how deep it will go. Plus the attack and growl out of 10s is great. If you want more super low end you can add a cabinet with a nice 15 in it to go with it in your stack, or even a 12 or 2x12. Smaller drivers are popular because they're so much more precise. It's not like a PA sub, or one for your car.

Some nice sounding items that aren't totally rediculous in cost:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ampeg-B410HE-4X10-Speaker-Cabinet?sku=603088
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/SWR-Big-Ben-1x18-Bass-Speaker?sku=602010
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Schroeder-1212-Regular-Bass-Cabinet-?sku=484866
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/SWR-Triad-3Way-Bass-Speaker-System?sku=602008

Don't use the Big Ben alone, but combined with a 2x12, 2x10 or 4x10 it could sound killer. Personally, I'd get a 4x10 and a 2x12 in my fantasy stack. (don't play bass though, so I'd just be miking it, lol) There are a lot of options for heads. You'll just have to figure out your power needs and budget. The nice thing about going modular is you can start out with one thing and add later.

ps: you can go cheaper. I just wanted to give a nice cross section of some quality boxes.... Which ones you choose depend on the sound you like.

[87PRS]

other considerations to make the jump...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ampeg-SVT410HE-Bass-Enclosure?sku=481741

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ampeg-SVT410HLF-Classic-Series-Bass-Cabinet?sku=603065

these may be considered the bank breakers, but the sound is awesome when coupled with the appropriate amp head. 87'

[87PRS]

also just wanted to add regarding woofersus post on SWR gear. I have a friend who uses SWR and it sounds real nice, great bottom end. I've heard his band live and the bass comes through, and he uses a 2-10 combo DI mains/subs.

[woofersus]

+1 on the ampeg svt series. I tried to keep my suggestions in the same general vicinity as what you're using (minus the head) but those are great.

[87PRS]

agreed woofersus, ampeg SVT series rocks. I play keys in a club band with my son, and the svt pro6 amp head has all the punch you'd ever need, it literally vibrates my feet on the expression pedal *smile*

Harper does your 220 watt Crate go to 4ohms when used with an ext speaker? I looked it up on the MF site and couldn't find the info, the amp does appear to get some bad reviews, have you had any problems with the dist channel?

[Harper]

Haven't had the need to use the distortion channel, but my son reports no issues. I started reading the bad reviews only after I go the thing, but thats the way my luck goes.

I checked the manuals that came with it and found that external speakers are to be 4ohms. It would be definitely more cost effective to try and salvage some kind of rig using it with a new ext speaker cab.

Would an EQ help all that much? I've talked with someone who suggested it.

[woofersus]

An eq could help a little with certain tonal issues, but it won't make up for the driver's inability to reproduce certain frequencies effectively. I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap, crappy eq, and I wouldn't recommend spending much money on a nice one unless you're sure it will give you the results you're looking for.

Take your rig to GC and ask to hook up an eq in the pa department. Test it out and see if the results are worth the money. You may find that with the ability to notch out certain problem frequencies it sounds much better. You may find it just gives you better tonal control but you still don't have the punch or attack you want. If I had to put money on it, I'd guess on the side of it not making a worthwhile difference to be honest.

[Harper]

It does sound like the EQ thing is throwing good money after bad.

Any ideas on the 4ohms cab that would give me some of the bottom end I'm lacking which could get me through for a while?

Thanks for sticking with me on this.

[87PRS]

the eq idea isn't a bad one, but usually they are run inline with the guitar (ie as a stomp box) and are intended more for the instrument then the amp. Another idea is a sub harmonic generator, or bass sythnthesis processor which add an octave below the lows you are already getting, but these units don't actually do anything for the speaker sound itself. Just about any 4 ohm 200 watt up bass speaker cab should work with your set up....finding a 4ohm cab is a job....
Nemesis built by Eden is a good speaker
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Nemesis-NSP210-Bass-Cabinet?sku=606171
Carvin BR210 is on sale!
http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?product=BR210
This BRX10 is a great buy!
http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?product=BRX10.2NEO

[woofersus]

Yeah, I guess if there's not an insert point on the amp then an eq is not an option. I don't think one inline with the guitar would help with this at all.

I'd imagine that 8ohm would be fine too. It just wouldn't get as much wattage. The gist is probably just not to go below 4.

[Harper]

I had once looked at an bass EQ stomp box from Boss I think it was. It was a 5 or 7 channel - I forget. It was only 69.00. I'll go on one of those I expect.

I'll look at the Carvin 2x10 that's on sale.

Thanks for the help and the research! If anything else comes to mind...

[87PRS]

thinkin' wooferus hit the nail on the head and wattage with "power loss" using an 8ohm speaker, wouldn't balance out the speakers like a 4ohm would...a 69$ stompbox won't be the same as adding that speaker...just my2cents

[woofersus]

Now that I remember what that amp sounds like, I probably wouldn't spend a whole lot of money on trying to change how it sounds anyhow, to be honest. Not trying to sound like a gear snob here. There's nothing wrong with needing to stick to a budget. I just don't think you're really going to be happy until you get a different cabinet.

[Harper]

You're right. I tried the stomp box EQ with a Crate. The change is negligible. I can't shake that midrangy muddy sound.

Are the Carvins well thought of?

[87PRS]

hey Harper, sorry for the late response, been outta town on a gig for the w/e. Guess since I brought Carvin up, I'll say this; I've bought Carvin for 15 years now, and have never had a bad product, btw still using a set of 15" floor monitors and still sound good with original speakers, so that's pretty awesome, esp since I've blown out 2 PV 15" monitors. There are better speaker cabs, but you will pay alot more for the name. I hope this makes sense and helps some, good luck.

[Harper]

Thanks for the info. Do you use the Carvin heads too? The Carvins do seem reasonable in price. I appreciate all your time in this.

[87PRS]

No problem, all I can really vouch for are the speaker cabs.
My wife and I bought our son a Carvin 2-10 bass combo 7 years ago, he used it for 5 years, beat it up and abused the crap outta it, finally had to pull head out of the cab and send it back in for repair, he sold it eventually and bought his present Ampeg set-up...that's my only experience with electronics. I've used their speaker cabs, and replacement speakers for other brand name manufacturers. Carvin started out as a USA guitar manufacturer.

[Harper]

Thanks for all your time on this...I believe the Carvins are what I'll investigate.

Best,

Harper