newbie just getting started

[dblkman]

i am basically a newbie when it comes to audio configurations....i will be buying a peavey 20 channel mixer, a hosa 150' snake and TOA amp (already go this device) and 6 mics with speakers.

please tell me if i am incorrect in how i will be connecting these devices. the mixer will be connecting the snake to the mics, also i'm gonna connect the amp to the snake and the speakers to the amp. is that the way it should be? :confused:

i am doing all this for my church as we do not have the money for labor charges. any advice will be appreciated.

[87PRS]

dblkman, sounds like you have quite a system going on, and more and more churches are upgrading there live systems, especially for the more comtemporary Christian music being played in P & W. It sounds to me like you have the right idea, mixer hooks up to snake 1-20 or ?, mic per mic and you run your aux through 1-4 (?maybe, this is also on snake) for amps and mixing, speakers hook up to (amps) on stage, this is usually where the amps are, then run your mics out of snake, keep your volumes low starting out till you make sure everything is hooked up right. If you aren't using a cross over, used for multiple amps as in bi-level, tri-level amping you shouldn't have any big problem with this set-up. Good luck.

[dblkman]

THANKS FOR THE GREAT ADVISE!! Got everything hooked up just got one problem.....no sound!! :(

I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong so let me explain our setup. We have a Peavey PV-20 mixer (on our balcony) connected to a HOSA 150' snake which ends on the pulpit (16x4). I would like to use the existing amp that was already at this church (TOA 912A) instead of buying another one. Someone mentioned to me that even though it's a bit old it's still a very good amp. My question is, how do I hook up that amp to the snake properly? I connected the mics to the snake and connected the snake to the mixer with no probs...I tried to use an RCA to 1/4 plug from the amp to the snake but got no sound...also I am kinda at a lost as to where on the amp to hook up the connection...any help would be appreciated as my church will balk at hiring a pro. NEED HELP PLEASE

[87PRS]

Find the weak link. Forget the snake, take the mixer to the stage and make sure it all works first, the TOA (is in the pic?) maybe your problem, have you actually heard it? In my experience I have never seen rca's on a stereo power amp used in live sound, but that doesn't mean much, check it out.

[dblkman]

yep I know the TOA works fine, we were using it before I bought the mixer. I'm sorry I did not mean to say RCA, I meant the aux plug going into the amp has a 1/4 end to the snake.

gonna take the mixer to the stage and test...thanks!!

[sabianq]

quick setup advise

microphones to snake
snake to mixer into individual channels
line from mixer main out to amps

(you might need to change the connectors of the mixer to match the amp in's

some mixer outs have both XLR and 1/4 inch out.
likewise some amps have 1/4 inch in's and XLR in's

they do the same thing.
but 1/4 inch balanced is usually line level as XLR is balanced mic level

amps to drivers (speakers)

label your mixers channel to correspond to your mics

[sabianq]

sometimes when the amp is far away from the mixer you can use the return channel on the snake to feed your amp.

the setup would look like this.

microphones to mic in's on the snake
snake to mic In's on mixer

mixer main out to return in on the snake
then hook up your amp to the return out from the snake.

this is a better way to setup a system for a mobile system but is useless when the amp is sitting next to the mixer in an equipment rack.

so unless your amp is on the other side of the room next to your drivers (speakers) you will not hook up your amp to the snake at all.
just run some cable from your main out on your mixer to your amp.

[dblkman]

Unfortunately the mixer will be appx 65' away (on the balcony) from the amp, the amp is on the pulpit with the speakers. We had to purchase a 150' snake and run cable in the attic down to the pulpit. If all else fails I guess I could order a 150' custom cable to connect the amp to the mixer or else place the amp near the mixer on the balcony and order longer speaker cable. :confused:

the main reason I bought the snake is because of the amp and mixer being so far away

[sabianq]

that is not unfortunate at all.
actually, to be honest, it is better to have the amp closer to the speakers.
you were right in getting that snake.

just use the return line on the snake to drive your amp from your main out on your mixer.


look at the rought (very rough) diagram
the mixer has the microphone in's
connect the snakes round ends (XLR connectors) to the mic ins (XLR connectors) on the mixer.

then connect 2 of the snakes 1/4 (stereo looking plug) to the main outs of the mixer.

on the other end of the snake connect your microphones to the round holes (XLR connectors)

then connect your amp to the holes (1/4 inch stereo looking holes) in to the snake. (IMPORTANT: make sure you are using the same connector numbers you hooked to your mixer.)

like hole 1 or 12 to plug 1 or 12

then connect your amp to your drivers.

make sure all faders are down on your mixer and levels turned down on your amp
turn on your mixer first then turn on your amp.
set your amp to unity (0db)

then bring up your master on your mixer to unity (0db)

then bring up your microphone fader slowly.

if it is all "plugged up" correctly, you should get some audio from the microphone

[sabianq]

if your snake does not have dedicated return lines, just get some "gender benders" or "turn arounds" and connect your mixer to your amp usnig 2 of the microphone lines.

you dont need to get any more equipment if everything is working right.

however, if your snake does not have any return lines, then you will need to purchase something like this:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:yibWYjWvIA4K5M:www.newworldproaudio.c om/images/Connectors-Adaptors/HAFF.jpg

or this

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:MnjebfUcTG1WZM:www.midi-classics.com/i/p22736.gif

[dblkman]

OK here are the connections on the mixer and amp. Just let me know what to plug into what :D



PEAVEY MIXER: 1/4 connections
MON1 SEND
MON2 SEND
EFX SEND
LEFT OUT
RIGHT OUT
CTRL ROOM LEFT
CTRL ROOM RIGHT

TOA AMP: Has some kind of RCA (i think) to 1/4" connector which should come from one of these connections on the amp to the 1/4" connection on the snake.

AUX OUT
PWR AMP IN
PWR AMP OUT
BRG IN/OUT

SNAKE:
1-16 XLR
17-20 1/4" returns

[Bops2000]

Unfortunately the mixer will be appx 65' away (on the balcony) from the amp, the amp is on the pulpit with the speakers. We had to purchase a 150' snake and run cable in the attic down to the pulpit. If all else fails I guess I could order a 150' custom cable to connect the amp to the mixer or else place the amp near the mixer on the balcony and order longer speaker cable. :confused:

the main reason I bought the snake is because of the amp and mixer being so far away
If you can, dedicate one channel from the monitor send to the drummer, and guitarplayer for headphones,
I did the church thing as a drummer for a few years, and can tell you that it is quite difficult to mix the drums from the Balcony. Let the drummer/guitar/bass control his mix, via his phones from the main out, and trust his/her opinion.
hope that made sense.

[87PRS]

getting some more good responses dblkmn, if you think of your snake as just long cable runs it may also make more sense to you, as each channel on the snake for your mics and amp. Of course the snake plugs into your board, return channels are for the amp. Your 2 stereo outs from the mixer go to the returns 17/18 (i think) then on stage these feeds go to the "in" on your amp, then outs to speakers, plug in mics 1-16 as needed. Follow sabians recommendations for powering up the system. I'm hoping you just have something plugged in backwards here. Please keep us posted, and let me know if taking it to the stage got any sound. As a simple live setup you should be getting something.

[dblkman]

wanna thank you guys for all the help....gonna try your suggestions this weekend...will let you know how it goes Monday!! :)

[sabianq]

hey
ok,
with that equipment,
i would hook it up this way

like 87prs suggested

microphones to snake 1-16
snake 1-16 to mixer channel 1-16
mixer left out to snake 1/4 inch channel 19
mixer right out to snake 1/4 inch channel 20

snake to amp
(channel 19 to left channel in on amp)
(channel 20 to right channe inl on amp)

that should get you started

[dblkman]

WOOOHOOO GOT SOME SOUND BABY!!! :D
granted it's not the best sound but at LEAST it's a start......THANKS GUYS!!! will let ya know how it goes

[dblkman]

OK....now that there is some sound it's distorted :confused: I can hear my voice from the speakers but it's very distorted..any thoughts?? I know the speakers work perfectly before I put in the mixer.

[sabianq]

if you keep up that distortion, your speakers wont work perfectly for long.

regardless,

sounds like what you have there is what is called a "line/mic" issue.
basically, you have a line level (+4 db into a -10 db) source feeding a mic level input.

you will know right away if you get way to much volume by barley turning the volume knob.

make sure all of your equipment is set to the same level.

if you can, take closeup pictures of the back of the amp and the I/O of the mixing board.

or better yet give the model numbers of your equipment.

that way, one of us here can let you know if you need to purchase an impedance transformer or if you can just hit a button

[dblkman]

I have a PV-20 (peavey) mixer and a TOA A-912A amp

[sabianq]

oh, ok


well, your "amp" is actually a powered mixer.
it is a 120 watt, single channel out, 6 channel in.

here is the manual
you should read this:

http://www.toaelectronics.com/disc/manuals/A-903_6_12A.pdf

what kind of plug-in modules do you have attached to the back?

where are the speaker wires attached?

the (com) and 4 (ohm symbol) 25v or 70v
or are the speaker wires attached to the
8 (ohm symbol)
(note for admin: is it possible to get a list of electrical symbols? like the smilies but say an ohm symbol?)

and since you are sending a signal to another mixer,
you need to make sure your amp volumes (both volumes the one the mixer is plugged into and the amp volume) are turned all the way down.
turn your mixer faders all the way down mic and main

now bring up your mic to about half way
and bring up your main (on the mixer about half way)
then go to your amp/mixer and turn up the volume of the the channel your stage mixer is plugged into until you see the needle just move on your amp.

now turn up your amp main volume until you hear the speakers (about half way)

the knob that controls your stage amp on your TOA is the critical knob. this knob adjusts the sensitivity to the signal coming from the pv20.

play around with the levels.

understand that you have 3 level controls in line and you need to adjust them until you get them to talk happy to each other.

personally, i would replace the mixer/amp (TOA) with a QSC RMX850
and then i would replace the PV20 with a Mackie 1604

just let us know where your speakers are plugged into on the back of the amp.

[dblkman]

OH CRAP....well we just bought the pv20, dont think they are willing to spend for an amp...hey we do have 2 more amps or hell now i dont know what they are..we also have an MPA-125 and a PST30A that are not being used.


I am not using any of the modules because that was where the mics "used" to plug in before I got the snake the snake. The speakers are attached to the 4ohms and com.

[sabianq]

dont freak out,
you still have an option,
is this the mixer you have?
http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/PV20USB-large.jpg
you can connect your mixers main output to the same place your mics were connected to, channel 1 and 2 on the amp
use the TOA's mixer control to adjust the sensitivity of the TOA to the mixer.

there is no reason this setup wont work.

if you are still having issues, you can get yourself something called an IMPEDANCE matching transformer.
or input line adapter
like this one
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/Accessories/us_pro_A15LA_content
http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_pro_A15LA_m.jpg
you will need two of them one for right and left


then hook your main outs to your mic in's on your TOA

just keep your volumes turned down!

bring them up slowly!

[sabianq]

most likely, unless your mixer can send out a microphone level signal, you will need to get yourself a couple of the line adapters
then just place them in line between your mixer and TOA.

im just courious, how many microphones do you need on stage?

[dblkman]

*whew* thanks man!! this audio stuff is NOT easy!! will try it this weekend and let ya know.....

[dblkman]

we have 6 mics

[sabianq]

when did you get your mixer?
and whom did you get it from?

[dblkman]

The mixer was ordered from Samash, we just got it 2 weeks ago.

[sabianq]

i would suggest that you order the line adapters from Shure today
then use them.

one basic rule of thumb is dont ever hook up a line level source to a microphone level pre-amp.

the line adapters will get rid of the distortion and clean everything up

plus if they dont work then you can always return them

good luck

[sabianq]

one more option,

return your mixer to SamAsh and get them to exchange it for a Mackie 1402

http://samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=0&TempID=1&STRID=15053&Method=2&CategoryID=0&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=0&pagesize=10&SortMethod=2&SearchPhrase=1402&Contains=%2A1402%2A&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=


a mackie 1402 will connect directly to your TOA.
there is a Line/Mic selector switch on the back.


Plus, i think the mackie is better built.

[sabianq]

oh, you need to get some XLR turn arounds also

because you will be using 2 of the XLR feeds in the snake to send your signal to the TOA.

you should always have some of these in your "tool" box

http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/cableaudio/connectors/390.jpg
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/cableaudio/connectors/389.jpg
http://www.audiomidi.com/audiostore/images/hosa_stx100m_sm.jpg

[dblkman]

will do!!


thanks

[dblkman]

hey i ordered the line adapters....i hooked the system up just like you said and it works, there is "some" distortion that will hopefully be cured once the line adapters are hooked up...

got a question though, we have an EQ and a limiter/compressor....can I use the limiter to get rid of the distortion? Right now they are just sitting in the audio cabinet not being used...IF I can use either or both where or how do I hook it up to the amp?

[sabianq]

your compressor / limiter is used in the channel or main insert.

the purpose of this tool is to compress the amplitude of the signal making it more ahh... level.

http://www.pcmus.com/compressors.htm

The audio compressor automatically adjusts and maintains the signal levels
This compression evens out the distance between loud & quiet parts, by crushing the audio if it gets too loud, and raising the audio in the quiet sections. Compressors also can radically beef up a synth bass sound for example, making it sound tight 'n' punchy.

you would use it to say keep the pops and the "esses" from clipping your amp or you can use it as a tool for when recording all of your tracks



here are what the controls mean on your compressor.

INPUT........To set the level in.
THRESHOLD........This sets how high the signal must reach before the compressor kicks in.
RATIO.......This sets how much compression is applied in ratio to the Db rise in signal level above the Threshold.
ATTACK.......This sets how fast the compressor kicks in once the Threshold has been breached.
DECAY........This sets how fast the compressor lets go, once the input signal has dropped back below the threshold.
LINK ......Links the two sides for stereo operation.
OUTPUT......Sets the output signal level.


you would have a hard time (if not impossible) configuring it to drop your output line level to mic level.


as for your EQ, you would use the EQ to adjust and compensate for your room acoustics, this tool would be placed in between the mixer and the amp.

to use a EQ correctly for "ringing out a room" you would set up your microphones, then starting at microphone 1 bring up the volume (fader) of the microphone until you hear a very slight constant ring, this is feedback but in a controlled way. it takes practice to get good at producing induced feedback without overwhelming your system and causing a screech.

then while you have the feedback "tone" ringing you reach over to the EQ and drop that frequency (the frequency you hear is reflected on the EQ) by 3 or so db.

never take out more than 1/3 of the gain of the frequency otherwise you run into changing your speakers (the person who will be using the microphone) sound.

{I say driver instead of speaker because a driver is connected to an amp and a speaker is someone who is talking into a microphone.}
do that for all of your microphones.

when you are finished, your faders on your EQ will kind of reflect the acoustic properties of your room.

[dblkman]

:d It Worked...got Clear Sound....can't Believe It!!! You Guys Are The Best!!!!


Thanks!!!

[sabianq]

no problem


hope to see you poking around these here threads

[dblkman]

hey guys got a question for ya!!! just a recap...i have 150' snake connected to an amp on the stage and the other end connected to a mixer. everything is great except it's freaking inconvenient :eek: to have to turn on the mixer...run downstairs and turn on the amp and vice versa....couldn't i just go out and buy about 200' of speaker cable and put the amp near the mixer? or will the sound be too degraded?

[sabianq]

yes you can
the audio signal will not be degraded as long as you use the right gauge wire.
and code now says that you need to run UL / CL rated jacketed cable.

either a 10 gauge or 12 gauge cable will work fine.

something like this:
http://www.impactacoustics.com/product.asp?cat%5Fid=3103&sku=29175

or this

http://www.dsmiller.com/html/Electronics-Bulk-Accessories-Bulk-Speaker-Wire-12-2-PL1000.htm

if you look around, you can find better deals for this on line.

basically you are looking for a cable with the numbers 12/2

the 12 means 12 gauge (thicker wire, smaller gauge number)
the 2 means 2 strand (some speakers wire comes in 4 or even 6 strand these wires are used for bi or tri amping)

[Audiodude]

This is the stuff:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/12ga.B/

12 gauge, 2 conductor twisted pair (nobody has mentioned it, but twisted pair is important for noise rejection), with a heavy jacket. It's about 50 cents per foot (if you call or email me, otherwise 59 cents on the website), and we will cut it to whatever length you need.

[Gilligan8]

You don't need noise rejection with speaker cable LOL

[Audiodude]

I'm not talking about common mode noise rejection as in balanced cables. Twisting a pair of wires is a very common and very old way of reducing noise, regardless of the voltage level running through those wires.

The benefit of twisting the wires together is that it will not only reduce crosstalk or electromagnetic induction between pairs of wires, but will also make them less susceptible to outside interference. When current passes through any wire a small magnetic field develops around it. If other wires are in close proximity, the electrical current from one wire may be "induced" into an adjacent wire. When they are twisted around each other, the magnetic field is randomized to an extent that this induction is greatly reduced. Further, this randomization of the wire's orientation makes it much more difficult for stray EMI to become inducted into the wire.

[Audiodude]

I dug up this thread over at Pro Sound Web which goes into more detail:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/15623/137610/0/

(Editorial note - I'm moving this whole thread over to the Front Of House Forum since that's really where it belongs...)

[Gilligan8]

I understand how twisted pair works (I do networking for a living and we live on twisted pair)... but if you are getting noise introduced to your system via speaker wires then you have some SERIOUS noise issues as that noise is loud enough to be heard without amplification! Crosstalk and noise happens before the amps at minute levels that are then AMPLIFIED by the amp which causes the problem... once you are past the amp as long as your conductors are big enough to handle the current you will be just fine.

[Audiodude]

Granted, it's a lot bigger problem if it happens before the amp. But problems can occur after the amp stage, as well. If this wasn't the case, nobody (or at least ALMOST nobody) would bother to go to the trouble and expense of producing twisted-pair speaker cables.

The problem, as I understand it, is two-fold (granted, I'm no electrical engineer, but I'm pretty sure I've got this)...

1) With the higher current present in speaker cable comes a stronger magnetic field around the wire. And with the stronger magnetic field comes a greater likelyhood of magnetic inductance between the two wires. So, although the speaker cable is less susceptible to crosstalk, this is balanced by an increased capacity to generate crosstalk.

2) RF interference in an un-twisted cable, though inaudible in the speaker alone, can get into the output stage of the amplifier, and cause problems, including audible noise, in the amp.

Though less of a concern, twisted speaker cable also guards against EMI from power cables, lights, etc. as it would in a network or phone cable.

[Gilligan8]

Monster Cable couldn't have said it better themselves.

I doubt anyone will HEAR a difference and certainly doesn't justify the cost unless you already have TOP gear everywhere else... this money would be better spent on LOTS of things before theoretical noises that no one hears.

[87PRS]

hey guys got a question for ya!!! just a recap...i have 150' snake connected to an amp on the stage and the other end connected to a mixer. everything is great except it's freaking inconvenient :eek: to have to turn on the mixer...run downstairs and turn on the amp and vice versa....couldn't i just go out and buy about 200' of speaker cable and put the amp near the mixer? or will the sound be too degraded?

Or instead of spending money on cable, "assign" someone on stage to "turn" the amp on....jeesh!

[Audiodude]

Monster Cable couldn't have said it better themselves.

I doubt anyone will HEAR a difference and certainly doesn't justify the cost unless you already have TOP gear everywhere else... this money would be better spent on LOTS of things before theoretical noises that no one hears.
No, Monster would sell you cable with magnetic flux tubing and gold connectors to solve the problem. ;)

Seriously - I'm not a fan of expensive cable or pseudo-scientific reasoning to get people to spend more money than they need to. Twisted pair speaker cable is hardly a new technology or out there on the fringe of what is accepted. The noises I'm talking about aren't theoretical at all - they can be very audible depending on your amp. I've heard them, other people have heard them, my customers have complained about them, and switching the cable solved their problem.

And - I'd like to point out that the cable I recommended is actually CHEAPER than what sabianq recommended, plus you can only buy the length that you need, which would save you even more.

[sabianq]

technically you are all correct!

as for the twisted pair, I have done alot of installs running very long and short, bi and tri amped systems.

The wire i speced actually is twisted in the jacket.

Audiodude is right in stating that the twisting of wire is a very old technology dating back to Bell when he found that twisting wire makes for a clearer signal.

I so far actually havent found a jacketed multi strand speaker wire that isnt twisted.

I think It might not be twisted very tight, but twisted none the less.
that wire audiodude suggested is a really great price (I did say that you can find better priced online, I should have checked sweetwater :) )so if you want to run yout drivers from your control room, then the use of the wire he speced would work great.


but in the real world you should not have to even touch the amp once it is set.

just set the levels to how you want them, write up a big sing that says "DO NOT TOUCH!" tape in on the amp and (just walk away)

the levels should be controlled from the mixer.

if you would like to have controll over the power, then you could put the amp on a switched outlet and flip the switch when you turn everything on.

another technique is to just leave the amp on all of the time.

but i must caution, although it is a common practice, i do not know the condition of the amp and cannot suggest leaving the amp on indefinetly.

[Gilligan8]

Or instead of spending money on cable, "assign" someone on stage to "turn" the amp on....jeesh!

I second that idea!!

[dblkman]

I second that idea!!

Well we actually do have someone to do that task but (i did not mention before) it is also desired that the amp not be on the stage because of how cluttered it would be. Since the amp we are using is a monster TOA it would serve better being racked on the balcony then in plain view on the stage. And before anyone asks they are NOT willing to purchase another amp. :D


thanks

[dblkman]

ok ok before you guys get too tired of me let me ask another question....:D

after recording from the mixer to my computer i discovered the volume on the recording is very low, now the mics are turned up and sound comes from the speakers BUT the recording is low....I am using a usb connection from the mixer to the computer...any thoughts?