before the build

[lurch101]

Hey all. Brand new to the forum and was looking to research a little before I build my new PC. I've got it nearly spec'd out, and once I get some more background, I'll drop a line for suggestions, but there's still some ?'s lingering that have me a little off guard.

Firstly, have there been any tests done to see how dual cores do with audio software? I've seen them smoke single cores in gaming apps, but I don't know the ability of most sequencers to harness the power of a second core. I do know Sonar 5 was just released and was the first to incorporate 64 bit technology, but I'm still uncertain if I'll be getting WinXP64. I'm inclined to believe that during things like mixdown most major audio apps (Nuendo, Sonar, ugh... vegas...) would probably tap the second core, but is the price difference going to really mean faster processing (hedging between Athlon 64 3700 San Diego and X2 3800)?

Secondly, how much does latency have to do with CPU speed and / or the PCI bus bandwidth? If I'm trying to apply FX to live inputs or run some guitar amp modeling software, where are my bottlenecks? Is low-latency RAM really going to make a difference?

These are the questions that kinda have my build on hold. That and a missing W2, so I can't file my taxes yet.:mad: Thanks for the input.

PS - this is exactly the kind of forum I've been looking for for about 3 years. I'm very happy I found it.:D

[TimOBrien]

Dual core/64-bit CPU will help you run more plugins. BUT only if the OS, the sequencer AND the plug-ins are spec'ed for 64-bit.

Latency has nothing to do with CPU. It's all the soundcard and it's drivers.

Remember that pulling together a bleeding-edge PC may leave you bloody. ONLY if all the drivers and components work and are stable will you not be spending all your time fixing incompatibilities.

Personally, NOTHING goes in my studio that hasn't been out for at least a year and is STABLE. I don't need to waste my time, raise my blood pressure and hurt my brain because it doesn't QUITE work yet.... A mature but slightly less fast PC is more productive than one that won't run or crashes constantly.

[itsplayed]

Going from a single core CPU to a dual core X2 or Opteron, will increase your plug-in/effects count dramatically, all while allowing you to reduce the buffer(latency) of the soundcard even if your running without Windows XP64.

[lurch101]

So the faster CPU allows me to have a lower buffer w/o dropouts since it can process the audio coming and going faster, right?

Would a firewire or USB audio interface have a lower latency due to it's bus, or is that not even an issue, as Tim says it's all about drivers? Currently I'm using a TerraTec EWS-88D PCI ADAT card w/ ASIO drivers, so I'm assuming my inability to get low latency w/o dropouts is due to my CPU (ie running my guitar in live through NI Guitar Rig, which is just massive). My current settings of 512 Samples/buffer @ 44.1k gives me 11.6 ms latency, but at 256 and lower, I get dropouts. I am looking to fix this with a new X2 3800 with double my current 1GB of RAM.

The question still remains of how much low latency RAM would help, and in what areas (I would guess mostly on sample-based music where the whole song could be loaded into RAM).

And lastly, I've read a few time from you, itsplayed, that the nForce 4 chipset has problems with DAWs, but what kinds of problems? Can you point me in the direction of some articles? I can't seem to find a system with the K8T800 chipset you recommended that has what I need, and I read in another post that you recommended the nForce 4 over the K8T890 which both meet my requirements. ???

[Bops2000]

I run a boatload of samples, vst's, effects and real audio tracks at a latency at about 3 ms on my amd 64 3200 asus board, these days, I can't see an issue anymore from non networked audio system lest converter issues hoggin cpu?- I shaddup now

[itsplayed]

So the faster CPU allows me to have a lower buffer w/o dropouts since it can process the audio coming and going faster, right?

The advantage doesn't come from any speed increase, it comes from the fact that your running with a second processor.

Would a firewire or USB audio interface have a lower latency due to it's bus, or is that not even an issue, as Tim says it's all about drivers?

Best: PCI soundcard
Better:Firewire soundcard (although some of the higher end units do give PCI cards a run for there money)
Limited Usability: USB soundcard

Currently I'm using a TerraTec EWS-88D PCI ADAT card w/ ASIO drivers, so I'm assuming my inability to get low latency w/o dropouts is due to my CPU (ie running my guitar in live through NI Guitar Rig, which is just massive). My current settings of 512 Samples/buffer @ 44.1k gives me 11.6 ms latency, but at 256 and lower, I get dropouts. I am looking to fix this with a new X2 3800 with double my current 1GB of RAM.

Your performance will certainly increase with the X2, by how much? I'm not sure, as I have no experience in using TerraTec cards in the DAW environment. A good way to look at this is, better soundcards w/better drivers just work better. In other words, it's quite possible to obtain better performance with your existing rig simply by upgrading to a better soundcard w/ better drivers. I also don't use NI and have heard that they really put a burden on the system.

The question still remains of how much low latency RAM would help, and in what areas (I would guess mostly on sample-based music where the whole song could be loaded into RAM).

High performance, low latency ram is a waste of money in a DAW, unless you plan on overclocking. However, you shouldn't go 'generic' either, something 'middle of the road' from a quality vendor is more than sufficient.

And lastly, I've read a few time from you, itsplayed, that the nForce 4 chipset has problems with DAWs, but what kinds of problems? Can you point me in the direction of some articles? I can't seem to find a system with the K8T800 chipset you recommended that has what I need, and I read in another post that you recommended the nForce 4 over the K8T890 which both meet my requirements. ???

Yes, the NForce4 chipset does have issues, the NF4 when coupled with an X2processor seems to mask these issues and competes well with NForce3 and VIA K8T800 units, until you reach the lower buffer rates(128/64). There are no articles I can steer you towards, even though they may exist. My info comes from exhanges with other users and builders, as well as my own experience in DAW building and running benchmark tests on such setups. If you don't 'push' the system you may never run into these issues....some users don't! But when pushed in stress testing the NF4 falls behind the NF3 and K8T800. Anyway, here are a couple of links to give you an idea on what I'm talking about......
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/nforce4_tests.htm
http://www.nforcershq.com/forum/1-vt57659.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[itsplayed]

...oh and by the way, What features are lacking on the NF3 and K8T800 boards that is steering you towards the NForce4?

...and Bops, your right! a single core AMD64/NF3 combo is still........KILLER!

[lurch101]

Maybe it's time for the post on my entire build. Just to close this thread before that, I do plan on getting an X2 3800, and as I currently run at 512 samples/buffer, even if I get the nForce4 board, I should be able to outdo what I currently get. The particular nForce4 board I'm eyeing (the Asus A8N-E) sports a SATA300 interface, whereas the others are stuck with SATA150. I've found the drives to be equally priced (SATA150 vs 300), so I don't see a reason in limiting myself now (even if PATA drives are fine enough for audio).

As will be posted in the ensuing "suggestions for build" post, this computer isn't the main computer for the audio I'll be working with. It's simply my home computer that will be occasionally tapped for audio editing on songs brought home from the primary studio I'll be working at. This also means that it'll have some down time as my entertainment PC (the occasional game, some video compression, standard home PC stuff). The music I'll be creating on it won't be that taxing on my system (mostly sample/VSTi based with maybe up to 10 audio tracks at once, usually recorded one at a time).

I guess it's finally time for the big post...