M-Audio Firewire & Laptop problem

[alex_h]

Hi,

I have pro-star laptop with a pentium 4 3.2 ghz processor, intel motherboard
1 gig of ram, 60gb 7200rpm hard disk.
I bought it in may this year for doing audio, and also bought an M-Audio firewire audiophile soundcard from nu-systems.co.uk.

I had no problems for a couple of months, then all of a sudden I found that the laptop kept losing its connection to the soundcard.
To remedy this I switched from using the native 4-pin port to using a PCMCIA firewire adapter.

This seemed to work for a while, but then the problem returned.
I would be working for a few minutes and then suddenly the sound would stop, the lights would start flashing on the soundcard
and if I opened the m-audio control panel it would either report that no sound-card was present or crash the computer. This was now happening every time I tried to use the soundcard, and afterwards it was becoming harder to get the soundcard recognised at all. Previously just rebooting would work, now I would have to re-boot several times or try re-installing the driver before the soundcard would connect.
I tried using the latest drivers and phoning M-audio support who got me to check for IRQ conflicts but this did not help.

I borrowed a friends m-audio firewire 18-14 and managed to use this quite happily for a whole day using the same m-audio firewire family driver, which convinced me that there must be something wrong with my soundcard so I sent it back to nu-systems. They couldn't find anything wrong with it so they sent it back to m-audio, who also found nothing wrong with it and returned it to me.

I then borrowed my friends m-audio firewire 18-14 again and found that this time it did exactly the same thing as my soundcard had been doing and stopped working after a few minutes, when I was working on a song that used quite a bit of processor power.
If the soundcard wasn't causing the problem then it must be the computer, so I did a clean install of windows xp service pack 1.
I then went through the windows xp optimization guide from audio forums.com and made sure my installation was configured ideally for audio, and installed the latest drivers for my soundcard. On plugging in the soundcard it again worked for about 5 minutes before being disconnected. It would then not be recognised at all until I uninstalled the driver and installed an older one. this enabled the soundcard to connect for about 60 seconds before vanishing again. It will now not be recognised at all no matter what I do.

I am tempted to take a sledge hammer to the soundcard and buy a usb one instead (I have been thinking about the makie spike) in the hope that this might make some difference, but I am not keen on spending so much money when there is a risk that I might find the same problem occurs yet again.

Can anyone offer any advice, or some insight as to what might be wrong with my current setup?

cheers,

Alex

[jmail]

A USB interface is not the best thing for audio, unless it's USB 2, and even then I have no idea how well it performs... firewire & PCMCIA stuff is better, but still no bed of roses for audio. But still, you've seen your interface perform as intended and then "lose it"... Have you done any M-Audio tech support communication? What have they said? Sounds to me like a computer problem, and NOT the interface. When you attempt to use the M-Audio gear, do you have all of your laptop "power-saving" features turned-off, including the CPU stepping? When that stuff tries to "throttle-back", you'll end up with all sorts of grief & woe...

[marckarck]

OK

1st apply this patch if running SP2 .

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/885222/en-us

Then before you go and buy anything else I suggest you test the throughput of your PCMCIA adapter and the cardbus controller chip in your notebook . Do the same for the 4 pin firewire port .

Also check what 1394 and pcmcia controller chip your notebook has, do this without the PCMCIA adapter installed . Go to start / control panel / system / go to the hardware tab and then device manager . Check both IEEE 1394 Bus host controllers and PCMCIA adapters . The best chips for both of these are from Ti [ Texus Instruments ] . While having these chips installed on the mainboard doesn't guarantee performance it's a good start . The reason there is no guarantee is that it still comes down to the implementation of the chip, and a lot of manufacturers get it wrong .

Also then check the FW chip on the PCMCIA adapter by plugging it in - do this while device manager is open and you'll see the chip added in IEEE 1394 Bus host controllers . You can let me know the make and model and tell you whether it performs or not.

Find yourself a quality external firewire enclosure like a Macpower Icecube or Lacie with a 7200rpm HDD installed. Find a file that is about 90Mbytes and copy it to the laptop and time it in seconds, do the same the other way . You should get between 25 and 40 Mbytes per second sustained throughput . So 90Mbytes should take about 3-4 seconds . The speed of your notebook hard drive will have an impact here to . Test both FW via the onboard 4pin and the PCMCIA adapter - they should be close .

Let me know what happens .........

regards

marck

[marckarck]

did nu-systems supply you the notebook ?

[jmail]

marckarck: "did nu-systems supply you the notebook?"

That'd be interesting, if they did... Is that the newest version of the MS patching process? They keep flip-flopping... what a bear to apply a patch to a patch of a patch on a patched process... WinXP, talking to itself: "firewire, what firewire? I don't have no shtinking firewire!"

by the way, alex_h, it sounds like you're aware of the difference, but the 4-pin firewire does not carry power, the 6-pin does, so depending on your ps for the m-audio, that could be a culprit, also...

[itsplayed]

Have you tried a new interconnect cable? Is your Lan card or equivalent disabled? Are you running with DirectX 8.1 or better? I would also suggest upgrading the OS to SP2. There are many upgrades/bug fixes to the OS besides security, despite popular beliefs.

[JohnBussoletti]

I've had some problems with dropouts that seemed to get traced back to a momentary power interruption to the 18-14 Firewire box. The symptoms were similar in that the laptop suddently didn't see the device.

I plugged the power source for the Firewire box into a UPS and that seems to have fixed my problem.

Depending on where you box is getting its power, it appears that any interruption of the power to the box can cause this kind of hangup. Check/substitute cables and try a UPS. These things don't take much power and it doesn't cost more than about $30.00 to get a UPS that will keep them powered up no matter what.

[justinmroth]

Are you booting the interface and then your computer? M-Audio states that you can permanantly damage both the interface and your PCMCIA card ect. by hot-plugging.

[Benton Pena]

Hello,

I have exactly the same problem but with and Ozonic, it has and sound card built-in.

Does anyone come up with a solution to this matter?

Thanks, regards

Benton

[itsplayed]

Hello,

I have exactly the same problem but with and Ozonic, it has and sound card built-in.

Does anyone come up with a solution to this matter?

Thanks, regards

Benton

More info is needed.... such as what are your system specs, what software are you using and what exactly are your issues?

[SelArom]

Hello, I joined the forum after finding this post. Was there ever a resolution to this? I bought the firewire solo specificially for making music with my laptop... now it seems I wasted my money on a $200 paperweight...

i tried contacting tech support and they basically said it's my IRQs and that there is nothing they can do to help me. (funny there is no mention of IRQs on the system requirements...)

anyway here is what I told them:

Product: Firewire Solo
CPU Speed: Pentium M 1.6Ghz
Platform: Windows XP SP2
RAM: 1GB PC 2700
System Type: DELL Inspiron 8600 Laptop

here is the irq information i sent them:
IRQ 0 System timer OK
IRQ 1 Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard OK
IRQ 2 System board OK
IRQ 5 SigmaTel C-Major Audio OK
IRQ 5 BCM V.92 56K Modem OK
IRQ 8 System CMOS/real time clock OK
IRQ 9 Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System OK
IRQ 11 ATI MOBILITY RADEON 9600 PRO TURBO OK
IRQ 11 Intel(R) 82801DB/DBM USB Universal Host Controller - 24C2 OK
IRQ 11 Intel(R) 82801DB/DBM USB Universal Host Controller - 24C4 OK
IRQ 11 Intel(R) 82801DB/DBM USB Universal Host Controller - 24C7 OK
IRQ 11 Intel(R) 82801DB/DBM USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller - 24CD OK
IRQ 11 Ethernet Controller OK
IRQ 11 Texas Instruments PCI-4510 CardBus Controller OK
IRQ 11 Atheros Wireless Network Adapter OK
IRQ 11 Texas Instruments OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller OK
IRQ 12 PS/2 Compatible Mouse OK
IRQ 13 Numeric data processor OK
IRQ 14 Primary IDE Channel OK
IRQ 15 Secondary IDE Channel OK

And here is the last that I heard from them:
I have a co-worker with the exact same laptop as you that had the exact same problem. As soon as he reinstalled windows, the problem was solved.

I'm about to reinstall windows on the laptop today (for other reasons, not the sound card because I know it's not going to make a crap of difference)... but since that's not going to work, anybody have any other ideas?

thanks!
-SelArom

[itsplayed]

Yes, your sharing IRQ11 with way too many devices including Graphics card, USB ports, Ethernet controller, cardbus controller, wireless network adapter and your firewire controller that is used for your soundcard....these need to be changed. A reinstall of Windows may or may not do it, it's basically a crapshoot when it comes to Windows handing out IRQ assignments. Best thing for you to do, is to disable any devices within the BIOS that your not using to free up resources....then reinstall Windows. Another option is to setup Windows in 'Standard' mode and designate IRQ assignments manually. However, this option will provide you with fewer IRQ's to go around.
I notice you have a modem, Ethernet controller and wireless network all enabled. You certainly don't need all of these devices running. Of course, it would be best to kill them all and not use this machine for internet use....if that's an option.

[SelArom]

Yes, your sharing IRQ11 with way too many devices including Graphics card, USB ports, Ethernet controller, cardbus controller, wireless network adapter and your firewire controller that is used for your soundcard....these need to be changed. A reinstall of Windows may or may not do it, it's basically a crapshoot when it comes to Windows handing out IRQ assignments. Best thing for you to do, is to disable any devices within the BIOS that your not using to free up resources....then reinstall Windows. Another option is to setup Windows in 'Standard' mode and designate IRQ assignments manually. However, this option will provide you with fewer IRQ's to go around.
I notice you have a modem, Ethernet controller and wireless network all enabled. You certainly don't need all of these devices running. Of course, it would be best to kill them all and not use this machine for internet use....if that's an option.

yeah i reinstalled and it all came out the same. I am screwed. I just wish they had put "don't use a dell laptop" on the box. maybe I would have fared better... I feel so cheated, but what're ya gonna do. maybe I can sell it

thanks for your help all the same
-SelArom

[itsplayed]

Did you enter the BIOS and disable all devices not being used ie Printer Port, Parralel port, Serial port, Modem, Soundcard etc. to free up resouces before reinstalling Windows? Did your perform a reformat of the drive or just a system recovery with the disk? Using the recovery disk without reformatting the drive will not change your IRQ assignments.
Go to Start > Settings > Control Panel > System. In the system menu select the 'Hardware' tab and select the 'Device Manager' at the bottom of the menu, you'll see 'Universal Serial Bus Controllers' listed with a plus(+) sign next to it. Left click on the plus(+) sign to open the tree into sub menus. You should see two instances of something called 'USB Root Hub'. Right click on the first one and select 'Properties' in the menu that appears. Select the 'Power' tab on top of this window and within the window that opens should be a list of devices that are currently sharing that hub. Do this for each 'USB Root Hub' to see if your soundcard is on it's own hub.

[alex_h]

For the record, this problem was never resolved.

- I tried disabling everything possible in the BIOS. M-audio support also confirmed that the problem did NOT appear to be IRQ - related.

- I was always running the soundcard using the power adapter it came with. (Since it can't be powered using a 4-pin connection or a PCMCIA firewire adapter this had to have been the case...)

- I bought the laptop directly from pro-star, not Nu-systems.

- I have never hot-plugged the soundcard.

- The power saving functions etc on my laptop have been turned off from the day I bought it. I immediately carried out all recommended optimizations for audio (as I said in my original post...)

- I have tried several different firewire leads.

- I sent the soundcard back to nu-systems, who sent it back to M-audio, who then sent it back to me, apparently unable to (be bothered to?) find anything wrong with it.

- I have tried running the soundcard from my desktop computer and it did the same thing - ie lost its connection with the computer after 5 mins or so of useage.

As far as I can see the soundcard is clearly f#cked so I will be buying a USB2 soundcard instead.
cheers,

Alex

[itsplayed]

Have you tried turning off your Lan card? Internet devices and Firewire/USB soundcards don't mix very well.

[alex_h]

Have you tried turning off your Lan card? Internet devices and Firewire/USB soundcards don't mix very well.

Yeah, I'm fairly sure the ethernet port was one of the things I tried disabling from the BIOS, but it didn't help.

cheers,

Alex

[itsplayed]

How about the Hyper-threading function?

[alex_h]

How about the Hyper-threading function?

I think I tried turning this off - I can't remember for sure though.

Bear in mind that I got the same problem occuring when I tried using the soundcard with my 2GHz AMD athlon desktop computer, as well as when I ran it with my 3 GHz pentium 4 laptop.

This makes me think it was most likely the soundcard being dodgy that caused the problem rather than a computer setting.

cheers,

Alex

[itsplayed]

That does make sense, but If that's the case, I wonder why you got the run-around from M-Audio?

[alex_h]

dunno.

Maybe nusystems didn't really send it to them?!

Wouldn't surprise me...

[trilapis]

hello everyone

i have the same problems with my firewire sound card. i also use a laptop, a Gericom pentium 4 1,8 ghz, 512 ram, 40 gb hd, win xp sp2. at first, i had some problems when booting. the computer didn't see the soundcard. i installed the latest drivers from the m-audio site. this seemed to solve the problem but then when i played music, after 3 or 4 tracks the sound stops. i need to hit play again and after 4 or 5 times it tottaly blocks?

can anybody help me?

thank you very much

[itsplayed]

Are you using the Firewire card exclusively or are you running it alongside the on-board audio card?
Have you checked your IRQ's for sharing?

[David Muniz]

First, Alex, as it seems you've already given up on the product, I apologize to you for the trouble you've gone through. HOW FRUSTRATING! I know what it feels like when it seems a faceless company doesn't care about your problems. I do. Honestly. And so do most of us at M-Audio.

The M-Audio US tech support team is a dedicated bunch of guys that work long hours to do the best they can to help our customers. The tech support manager, Calvin Banks, is the sweetest most patient man in the world. And if our global service isn't as solid now, it will be soon. Calvin has just begun the overseeing of a more tightly integrated global support network.

While these forums are obviously very helpful, your best resource is the M-Audio tech support team. They see these problems day in and day out and are prepared to handle them. If they can't find a solution to the problem, they'll try to recreate it and determine if it is a bug with the driver. If it is a bug, they'll take it to our engineering team to fix it and a new driver will be posted.

As is indicated by several posts to this thread, computer manufacturers are less than perfect. What is more likely to fail/cause problems? A complicated amalgam of components - hard drive, RAM, processor, motherboard, USB chips, 1394 chips, etc and a catch all operating system, or a simple Audio interface? My point is, we are all way to ready to put the blame on a $199 audio interface as opposed to a $1500 computer.

PC's are like Frankenstein's monster. Manufactures change components when they find a "similar" part cheaper and continue to sell it as the same product. They run into glitches and problems and can't afford to have a bunch of limping computers in their warehouses, so they sell them "hoping" to fix them with a driver/firmware update. It's the state of the industry. This is why it is often recommended to buy a computer specifically made for audio production, or to build on yourself.

Why doesn't M-Audio put a disclaimer on their box that says "except if you're sharing IRQ's?" Because then we'd have to put a disclaimer that says "except if your power is lousy, except if your hard drive is fragmented, except if your hard drive fails, except if the RAM is cheap, except if the manufacturer didn't provide enough power to the USB port, etc" The point, the tech support team can help.

99% of all service calls are related to the installation of the product. Rarely is there a hardware failure with our audio interfaces.

Alex, again, I am sorry. I hear your frustration. All replies to this thread have given great info and advice. I'm surprised it was never resolved. I've only recently begun to moderate this forum. If you do decide on another M-audio product in the future, I'll do my best to help.

[Drian]

I just purchased my Audiophile firewire interface and found the following issue. I followed the do-not-hot-plug instructions:

1. Have laptop and Audiophile turned off.
2. Connect them.
3. Power on Audiophile.
4. Power on laptop (mine is HP Pavilion zt3000, Pentium M 1.6GHz, under Win XP SP2).

Sometimes the Audiophile device is not found after the Windows boot and user login. In this case I need to shut down laptop, un-power devices, power them again, boot Windows. If laptop does find it then it works well.

In this thread I found that such behavior is the beginning of future troubles with the connection at run time.

Does anyone have progress with this connection issue?

Thanks

[KaresB]

Just a note on the "do not hot-plug" warning:

i have a ProjectMix I/O soundcard/DAW-controller and if i try to power it up before Windows XP, in 90% of the cases i get no sound at all. So nowdays i always make sure that Windows is running before i power on the ProjectMix.
May i also note that this is confirmed by other PMix users as well.

Another thing: (NOT firewire-related, but maybe worth mentioning)
prior to purchasing the PMix i used a Delta 1010 (the big one) - which is, as you know, is a PCI-based card + a breakout box with no power switch - and my main reason for returning it to the distributor was that very often it did not power up itself (with Windows). After booting Windows i usually had to unplug the power supply of the Delta breakout box for a second and plug it back in - after that, it was working OK. But after a few months (of hopelessly complaining about this and receiving no solution) i got tired of it and returned it to the distributor. (Actually, this was my second Delta1010 unit, the first one had to be returned because the jacks and switches on the breakout box started to lose contact.)

Now i'm using the ProjectMix since February and its constant display-problems - and hopelessly waiting for a new firmware or any other form of help - are alrady started to make me lose trust for the company's products, even though i love the sound quality of these units. (For example, sound quality-wise, i prefer both the Delta1010 and the ProjectMix to the Digi002...)

Actually, i am considering buying other M-Audio gear (monitors, mics etc.) but the above mentioned problems might easily convince me to reconsider.

[jlaudon@netviga]

My Projectmix hasn't worked reliably for the past few months (after upgrading my Mac OS and the Promix software driver), the firewire interface has burned out once, and now it's back in repair with probably the same problem after i sold it to a guy who plugged it into his PC, and never once saw it connected (I got it back, returned his money- BTW, he uses a Digi 002 with the same PC and configuration with no problems). M-audio guys keep saying it's the computer, and/or configurations (PCI cards, OS versions, etc...), yet I'm running an MOTU 828mkII, and just this week a Saffire Pro 26 i/o, and I put both of these interfaces and their software to major tests (huge track counts, lots of plugins, all my PCIe cards plugged in, turning the interfaces off and then on again, you name it), and not one crash or hiccup. I'm convinced it has to do with the M-audio interfaces & drivers, because I've seen too many guys with the same problems (dropped connections, etc..). I've basically written off my Projectmix to the scrap heap, because now the dealer is saying t might take a while to get it fixed this time (humming and hawing). Even my Oxygen49 keyboard plays double notes when I play it hard (triggers double note events), so I don't even use it anymore.

I'm sorry for my frustration, but even when I emailed the M-audio techs 2-3 times with the problems recently, not even an answer (except from david, who wants to help - thanks). I'm definitely off of M-audio gear.

[David Muniz]

Guys,

We'll do our best to help. Tech support at least in the United States, is top notch. If you are not having any luck with local distributor/dealer in your part of the world, please contact me via this forum. I'll do my best to be sure you get the help you need and that M-Audio follows up with our distributors/dealers to be sure we are being represented well.

As for the products, i can promise that we make every effort to make top notch products. If bugs are discovered we tackle them as soon as we can identify them. The only way we can do that is by contacting us and giving us the details to be able to address the problem.

Thanks everyone
David

[jlaudon@netviga]

I had emailed the tech guys in the US (I think David had forwarded me the contact), but no reply to the last two emails (around Sept 29) where I detailed the severe problems....

[KaresB]

just a thought:
could it be that all these problems with powering up, LCD-misbehavior etc have something to do with the different power supplies M-Audio is shipping these products with outside the US?

[jlaudon@netviga]

could be - my power supply for the Projectmix is 12v dc, and my dealer's is 9v dc - again, another question I asked tech, but no answer.

[WAcky]

Hey Alex!

Sorry to hear about your problem. Ive been ripping at my bedsheets over the same problem as you are experiencing. I managed to solve it today thanks to 'itsplayed.'

Despite the fact that im using PC our symptoms are identical. There may or may not be some information in my thread that could help you. I dont think its the FW410, but the fw port or something to do with its relationship with your lappy.

I hope my thread can help in one way or another. (http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15448)

Good luck mate!

[Drian]

I just purchased my Audiophile firewire interface and found the following issue.
(...)

Sometimes the Audiophile device is not found after the Windows boot and user login. In this case I need to shut down laptop, un-power devices, power them again, boot Windows. If laptop does find it then it works well.


OK.
In my particular case two obvious steps help:
1. Apply Update for Windows XP (KB885222)
2. Install latest driver for the Audiophile Firewire from M-Audio site.


Latest driver should be installed in the same sequence as original i.e. shutdown machine, un-power, un-plug Audiophile, start machine start installation, after it asks for reboot shut down machine, plug Audiophile, power it, power machine.

With new driver the Audiophile Firewire is recognized at the very beginning of the system loading. It can be found even after the hibernation. If you switch off the Audiophile at run time it will pop-up warning and instruction how to reestablish connection.

Thus I am pretty happy with that and will not return my device to seller.