PC noise - driving me crazy!

[brendon]

Hi,

been searching far and wide for solutions, but no luck so far. Hope someone here has a solution!

Problem: I get constant bubbling noise from my audio output , which changes with hardware activity i.e. mouse movements, harddrive spinning etc.

I've tried the following (with no improvement):
- Using different mice
- Upgrading video card drivers
- Trying a different video card
- Changing the slot position of the pci soundcard
- Trying a range of sound cards (usb & pci)
- Upgrading sound card drivers
- Using and disabling onboard sound
- Disconnecting everything from the board except os drive and graphics card
- booting the machine with the board outside the case (testing whether there might be a grounding issue)
- booting the machine in a different location with a different power source

Any ideas? I'm at the point of giving up and considering trying to return all components - possibly get a different board.

This really seems like it may be a grounding issue. But I can't seem to get to the root of it (no pun intended!

[Roly]

Hi
You have not stated if you have replaced the cabeling to your monitors and tried different monitors.
Yes?
cheers

[jmail]

You are most likely picking-up the interference the data channels are making. Unshielded cable, unbalanced cable, guitar pickups, etc. can all pick-up the signal. Induction is another way (close proximity). Make sure all your power cables are away from your signal and data lines as much as is possible. How's the cable routing inside the computer box? Is your recording picking it up? Do you have any disks in your optical drive(s). For some reason, my computer picked-up noise whenever I had a CD in my CD-R/W drive. And I don't know why! What kind of computer do you have? AMD or Intel? What kind of chipset? Sis, VIA, Intel, etc? What kind of sound card? SB cards and other ilk pick-up "computer" noise easy.

[brendon]

Sorry, should have stated my specs:
pentium 4 865pe (intel) chipset
GA-8IPE1000 mobo (Gigabyte)
Soundcard: Audiotrack Maya markII

thanks for the replies...

Monitors: Not sure if you're refering to audio or video monitors, but I have tried different in both cases. Plus different cabling.
I've also tried making up unbalanced audio cables for the audio monitors with the ground lifted at the input end of the cable - this makes it worse. Another thing I've tried is to put the cable through a DI box so that I get a balanced input for the monitors (my sound card has unbalanced outs). If I then use the di to lift the ground, I get rid of hum, but still hear the 'pc sound' i.e. bubbling & whirring sounds.

PC power cables & data lines: I've tried organising them. Will try isolating the power lines. I'll also try placing the supply outside the box, with the box closed.

I can hear the hardrive changing speed etc in the noise.

Recording: Not sure if this is being effected. Will experiment. This machine is very new and I haven't been able to do serious work yet (because of problem)

CD drive: I don't have any disks in the drive, but will do a test with the drive removed.

Soundcard: the people I bought my card from use it in the audio machines which they sell - they say they don't have any problems like this. I (think) I believe them :)

Since my post I've tried a different power supply. Of course this isn't conclusive as both are not top of the range and may not be shielded correctly.

One thing I haven't tried is another harddrive. This machine is new and I've only installed one drive. Will see if I can borrow a system drive from another machine and try this.

[jmail]

A very frustrating problem, isn't it? When you pick up the hd sound and the mouse tracking sound, you're getting something from the inside of your box. Something is leaking, whether it be the motherboard (doubtful), your card not shielded well (possible, doubtful), an internal cable (possible) or an open ground somewhere (are you using a grounded outlet with your system?). You're hearing the data transmissions as the comuter parts "talk" with each other, possibly on the PCI bus. You're most likely not recording the noise, but it is very irritating. Have you tried moving the card to a different slot? Say you're by the video card; move it to the other end of the computer. Many many moons ago, in the days of 8 bit slots (can't even remember the name of it), I had a generic sound card that recommended installing their card away from the video card and any modem cards. It did make a difference.

[Rex Mundi]

Hey,

Could it possible be a simple Memory issue? How much ram do you have? Cause i had what could be the same type of problem. If the noise (or bubbling) is realitive to the hardware activity, i may be worth trying out some more / and or different Ram.

Rex

[sabianq]

Hi Brendon,
I have been working with computer audio for some time now and one thing i have learned in my travels is that the inside of a computer is a VERY noisy place. The noise that i am talking about is not the audio noise that comes from the fans, HDD or optical drives, but the Electro-magnetic (EM) noise that is produced by your mobo, memory, and CPU. This noise can be heard by a very simple expirment involving a sensitive mixer with a good pre-amp, a balanced phono cable and a set of head phones.
Solo a channel on your mixer, plug in the phono cable and turn the trim all the way up. Place the tip of the other end of the phono cable to the chassis of your computer. You can hear the EM noise clear as a bell. (you might even need to turn down your phone level).
try "listening" to different things, the screen of a tv, the case of an electric motor, even the impedance of touching the end of the plug with your fingers.
I guess that my point is that it is very hard to quiet down this noise. there are a few steps you can do to help eliminate unwanted noise.
First and foremost, sound cards do alot of math when they are sampling analogue audio, up to 96000 samples a second (for consumer audio cards). that in itself can cause issues. and the math required to do that can be affected by outside noise and can "mirror" the EM noise as audio signals. shielding and isolating (balanced signals) components and wires (as stated above) is a very effective way of reducing unwanted noise (just DONT go wrapping your sound card in foil. Very Bad Idea ). Another way of reducing unwanted noise is by processing the analogue to digital outside of the computer chassis. Professional studios do this by using standalone A/D (analogue to digital) processors then send the digital signals to the computer or DAW (digital audio workstation) via usb, firewire or scsi for manipulation and recording.
Balanced audio systems are far more resistant to noise interference because the signals never run through ground.
if you are looking for a truly quiet system, I would consider looking at some consumer standalone usb or firewire D/A A/D's.
I love your choice of mobo. I am actually looking at upgrading my system and will be using the same mobo.

(maybe an isolation transformer will work for you)
jmail suggested moving your card to a faraway slot, did that help?

good luck

[brendon]

hi jmail, rex mundi, sabianq...

Thanks for the input. This problem is very frustrating. Been banging my head for 3 weeks now, and am feeling that I'm losing perspective :( Probably linked to the fact that I purchased my first set of decent monitors with this machine and they have revealed this problem in a very revealing way :)
Been doing a load of research and although many people seem to experience the same problem, there seem to be no conclusive answers and much silence from the component manufacturers.

Things I've tried since my last post (with no improvement):

PCI Card slot: I've tried different slots, including the one furthest from the video card.
CD rom: I've booted the machine with the rom disconnected.
PSU: I've booted with the psu outside the box.
Cables: I've rearranged cables, trying to keep power away from data.
USB: I've tried a usb card. Only had acess to a basic card without it's own power supply. The noise was still there.

This worked but not a solution...
I connected my digital output to some digital monitors, and the sound was clean. This however is not a solution as my new monitors don't have digital in and I plan to use this machine in a variety of live contexts - can't always expect a digital input. Does this clearly point to a ground problem?

things I haven't tried:
PSU: I don't have access to a high class psu. However searching this forum, I found someone with the same problem who bought an antec (or similar) with no improvement. However if I can get ahold of one, I'll try.
Power conditioning: I don't have a power conditioner, only a UPS. Not sure if it will make a difference in this case, although the wall power I'm using isn't great.
Memory: I have a gig of transcend ram.
Perhaps a should swap this out for some better ram?

Firewire/usb cards: The guy I bought my card from told me that his own machine has these noise problems if he uses firewire or usb. I found a thread on this forum where someone had my problem, but removed his firewire card and the noise went away!

Sabianq, you suggested I try an isolation transformer - where should I use this?

thanks everyone again for the help

[sabianq]

are your monitors active or passive?>
try using an isolation transformer in the signal path between your sound card and amp or in any line/mic level signal path
the IT isolates the audio signal from any ground source. this may be an issue for your system. then again, it might not be.
if the errant signals are comming through the ground circut, the this would solve your problem. if the signals are not running through the ground circut, then it wont solve your problem. but I always like to try different things when i have wierd issues.
here is a link to an isolation transformer from radioshack

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=270-054

i like them because they have a wide bandwidth and they are (most importantly) cheap.
good luck

[brendon]

My monitors are active.

I tried putting a di box in the signal path between soundcard & speaker and then using it to lift the ground. This got rid of hum, but I was still left with the bubbling sound.

Would this approximate what the IT would do?

We don't have radio shack here in South Africa, but I'll see what I can find, or purchase on line.

As there was hum, there is no doubt a ground loop from my wall power source. Where the signal leaves my soundcard, there are two distinct sounds: hum and 'bubble'(EM type sound). Do you think both could be created by the wall power source?

If so, it seems that I need to find a portable solution, as I don't use my machine in only one venue.

I've started looking at power conditioners conditioners - would they sort out a 50hz hum, ground loop problem?

[sabianq]

yea, a direct box is basically an isolation transformer. and it worked well for your ground loop issue. however you stated that you have grounding issues, this could be the cause of your other problem. It would not be a bad idea to look at a power conditioner.

(an isolation transformer for your power Also called a line conditioner, a device that sits between a computer/system and its power supply, typically a wall outlet. The power conditioner provides protection against surges in power just as a surge protector does, but a power conditioner also maintains a continuous voltage fed to the computer during temporary voltage reductions, such as a brownout. This is referred to as conditioning. Power conditioners also can filter EMI emanating from a power source and can smooth the rhythmic cycle of alternating current.)

See if you can use borrow one/use one from someone and see if that fixes your problem. Other than that, I would most likely need to be on site to help out further (and that aint happening). I will however keep researching EM noise in computers and if i learn anything new, i will post it.
good luck and have a good day.

[brendon]

Ok I'll see if I can get my hands on a conditioner.

big thanks sabianq (and everyone else) for the help. If this gets sorted out, I'll post the solution...

[Roly]

Hi
Does the noise go away if you unplug the ups from the wall?

[brendon]

'fraid not - I removed this from the equation a while back. Am at present trying to work out how to test a pc for grounding issues - will be consulting a professional.

thanks for the suggestion though!

[samigascon]

I had the same problem... I became lost trying SAI's, power conditioners etc, and finally I changed the motherboard for another one, and no noise.... is an Asus a7n8x deluxe with nforce 2 chipset. I have another amd64 mainboard, with a nforce 4, and is noisy

[flud1s]

Just out of curiosity, have you checked all your power supplies with a fluke meter? I have never had the noise you are desribing but I had 2 instances where my system would do all the things you are decribing without the noise.
-check your voltages output from you power supply both from the input and output
-check your incoming power voltage from source.
are you in an area that has constant power issues in general ie.- surges and dips in power?
if that is not the case and all is well have your main mother board ribbon cable tested at your local computer repair shop
In the very least this is a starting point.
flud

[brendon]

Hi samigascon,

very glad to hear someone who's beat the problem.

I've been suspecting my motherboard. If it is the case then the possible scenarios would seem to be:
1. motherboard faulty i.e. a dud
2. motherboard faulty in design
3. motherboard incompatible with something being used with it (hardware and/or power).

(left anything out?)

I don't know how to test for the first possibility. I don't have another identical board to swap out and haven't so far managed to find anything on the net refering to the board and similar problems.

As far as the second goes, I guess this is a possibility as there are DAWs using boards which don't have this problem, such as yours. And I'm certainly getting to that point where, despite the expense a change of hardware might be the only solution.
But then which board should I buy? I've tested a system with an Intel 865PE Rocklake and it has the same problems. I've been trying to find some kind of data base/survey of boards. Basically what I'd be looking for is an 865pe or similar, but don't want to swap and then run into the same problems. I guess I have to be pretty sure if I buy another board.

I guess the third scenario relates to the second, in that the board appears faulty but is instead being effected by something else.

I have considered selling this new system (to a non audio person) in its entirety and starting new with only recommended parts. But am trying to avoid this.

[brendon]

Hi flud1s,

as I'm new to this:

- what psu output voltages should I check for?

Are you referring to the HD ribbon cable? I have sata and have tried 2 different cables.

What problems did you have?

[flud1s]

check the power supply voltage label and make sure that the output matches what it is rated at. as well as the b/u unit you are using. also, take the batteries out and have them load tested at your nearest batter store.
I had a problem where my programs would close on thier own and my pc would shut down and reboot all the time on it's own. what I found is that my power supply was fluctuating and not holding the proper voltage output. I thought that I had read somewhere that this in a much smaller problematic case can sometimes cause interferance and you can get noises from your output. I replaced my power supply and all is wonderful now.
yes the hd ribbon cable is what I was refering to.
thanks brendon I hope I have helped a little.
flud

[chas]

Do you have MIDI plugged in? I get some similar noises through some of my keyboards when both audio & MIDI are connected... kind of annoying if you're trying to do any sequencing.

[brendon]

chas...
No I don't have midi plugged in

flud1s....
I've been checking the voltages, seem fine. Just am unable to test the board power connector output as the psu only switches on via board power when this cable is connected. Any ideas?

[xpine73]

I think it is all about the power supply which is either not enough for your system or poorly filtered.
So there r two possibilities.
1,A bad or deficient PSU
2,A component in your system sucking the power supply badly.(I think it seems like the motherboard)

[flud1s]

I can't really think of anything else off the top of my head...if I do you will be the first to know.
flud