Recording on a budget...tips please!

[bravediggs]

I'm sure lots of you read the title of this thread, sigh and shake your head...right? well please read on, all i'm after is a bit of advice and a few tips.

I have Cooledit Pro 2.0 on my not so hot Pentium 1.3 Celeron. I have been using it for a while to record mainly rock music as i'm in a band and it's a handy tool. However, i'm now looking to use it for recording "real" demos rather than using it for just idea recording.

So...The main things i'm having trouble with:

1. Recording bass seems to be a bit of a nightmare, especially it seems when you have a bassist with a punky style who plays ith a pick. any tips on compression?

2. I've read the thread on mastering and noticed the part about Ozone and some of the tools used. Stereo widening stuck out and i was wondering if anyone knew names of any good pugins for this purpose? also multi band compressors and gated reverbs? The trouble with amateur recording is that it almost always sounds a bit boxy to me.

3. settings - I have a 40GB HD, 16MB of ram ( i think), can anyone advised me on things like buffer sizes etc?

4. Microphones - I'm willing to buy a mic for the purpose of recording vocals to the value of about £100. Any tips on good makes / good budget mics?

5. Drums - We're recording these at a studio due to lack of drums mics / space and getting them on CD on seperate tracks for kick, snare etc. Any tips on EQing /compressing drums to get a phat rock sound?

Theres probably too much there for any one person to be bothered to answer so i'll shut up now!

..............

Here's a link one of my first attempts at recording with cooledit. The setup was basic to say the least. Shure SM58 direct into the PC for vocals. The bass and drums were sequenced on Fruityloops. The guitar was recorded through a marshall and to the PC via the line out. I'm sure there is SO much wrong with it that a trained ear can pick out, but to me and others it sounds better than anything we've recorded at a "professional" studio. please feel free to tell me your thoughts on what you hear.....

Times Like These (http://www.vitaminic.co.uk/cgi-php/get_file.php3?modo=1&bid=469093)

Thanks

[Stewbone]

Hey,
I'm a bit new too, but I can tell you a couple things:

1. Deal with the plunky bass sound via EQ. Recording it with lots of plink and snap is better than recording it with nice, solid bottomy sound. Record flat- even to the point of THIN-sounding. Boosting the lower freq's later will give you a pleasantly surprising result. You'll get all the sound of the note, plus Phat! Also, if you track with the sound you want to eventually end up with, you're likely to get more mud than you want.
Tracking with compression can be a good idea, but that's your own touch-and-go experiment. Try going with 'soft-knee', and don't squash the punch out of it!

2. Search Google, etc. for Freeware or Shareware plug-ins...

3. You guys might have to pitch in and get yourself some RAM. Current standard (for what it may be worth) seems to be around 512 MB (half-a-Gig). Might not need all that, but most folks seem to advise it. This might or might not necessitate a 'new' motherboard...
Got a manual with your Cool Edit? Search this forum for a link to the .pdf. Can't remember the thread, but it's in here! Search Google... Any computer recording hardware with manuals? Something you already have may educate you on buffers, etc.

4. Get a good Dynamic mic, one you can use for anything- like a Shure SM-57 (some say this is the best all-around), SM-58 (both around $100 U.S.),... look around at yard sales, pawn shops, "Salvation Army" type stores for the good deal. Seek and ye shall find!

5. Make sure everything in your mix has its' own "space". Try not to share frequencies if you can help it. Might not let your 'Q' widths get too wide... This is also a good item to go to Google with: "EQ Primers/Tutorials..."
There's a real good book I just found called "Home Recording for Musicians for Dummies". Bad title, good book: Easy read, lots of solid information. Covers everything in a general way, including analog signal flow, EQ, compression, etc. Ignore the 'patronizing' humor bits...:p

I'm doing budget too, man. It can be done, but you still have to put out a little gas. Good luck!

Rog.

P.S. Your web-site was unavailable, so I haven't heard your tune, sorry!

[lpdeluxe]

1. Compression can be done after the fact. Just be careful you don't record the bass so hot it distorts. THAT can't be gotten rid of. Record your bassist direct, at least in the beginning. This will save a lot of headaches. Never forget: RECORDING IS NOT THE SAME AS GIGGING! A lot of compromises have to be made by players sometimes in order to get an acceptable recording. Be patient and stick with it.

2. Get your recording done the best you can before you worry about "mastering". A lot of mastering is trying to fix things that are wrong with the mix. Learn to fix the mix, instead. Find some decent monitors for this.

3. Gotta have 512MB of RAM. Ain't no other way. I know. I tried.
Here are some recommended settings for buffers [Options/Settings/Multitrack Tab] (at least a starting point): playback buffer size: 1; pb buffer #: 10; recording buffer size: 2; recording buffer #: 10; [Options/Settings/System Tab]: Total Buffer Size, 2 seconds using 10 buffers, and on that same page, Cache Size should be set as follows: (if you have) 64MB of RAM, 8192; 128MB, 16384; 256MB or above, 32768. Here's the manual link Rog. is talking about:
http://www.alfors.com/Ruzne/cep2man.pdf

4. Rog. is right. Get a decent mic that you'll always have a use for to begin with and learn to use it!

5. There is a LOT of material here and at http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/ on micing drums. Don't expect all your answers at once. Most of them will come with experimentation and experience. It's unrealistic to expect "phat" sounds and "slammin'" bass first crack out of the box. If it was easy it wouldn't be fun any more!

6. Have fun and concentrate on learning. Don't think you have to have the magic kit. Music recording rewards experimentation and meticulousness. If you want to do it you'll learn how. Get in it for the long term. Not only will you become a better recordist, but a better musician, as well. Every session I learn more about both areas.

Cheers & good luck.

[bravediggs]

Thanks so much for the advice fellas, really appreciate it!

Did i say 16MB Ram????....oops, i meant 256MB!! I think / hope that should tide me over for what i need to do.

I noticed that when i looked in the settings the cache was set to "8192". How would this have affected recording? The reason i ask is that when ive recorded multiple tracks previously my PC has suffered from what i think is latency? Basically, when recording say a vocal or guitar track on playback it goes out of sync with the rest. I've upped the cache size to "32768" now, would this be likely to resolve the problem?

also, i was told that SM-57's were mainly "instrument" mics, for guitars / drums etc? Forgive my ignorance if i'm wrong. Would anyone else recommend them for vocal recording? I seem to remember using one at a rehearsal for vocals and being impressed with the clarity and prescence compared to SM-58's. I was thinking about getting an sm-57 anyway so i might raid ebay for one of those!

cheers

P.S. Forgot to mention i have a boggy Creative Sound Blaster Audio sound card, could this be causing the latency problem? If so, would upgrading to something like an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 be advisable?

[lpdeluxe]

The SM57 will be fine. It's the same capsule as the SM58 without the windscreen ball.

256MB is still low. That's what I started with and I had problems with it. I now have 512MB and everything runs smoothly.

Let me see: go to Options/Settings/Multitrack Tab (I think -- I'm not at the computer I record on) and there is a little window that says "Latency" which allows you to enter a delay in playback so everything dies on time.

To compute latency: record something with a sharp attack on Track 1 (I used a hand clap from a drum machine). Then route it back through your soundcard/mixer etc and record it onto Track 2. The difference in time between the peaks of the recorded sound on Track 1 and Track 2 is the latency. If I remember, entering "2", for example, means "2 milliseconds". Check the manual for that. It's something you set once for ever.

Good luck
John

[Stewbone]

Hey, lp,

About the SM-57/58 thing: Does this mean that if I have an SM-57 screen I can put it on my 58 and effectively have a 57? That's it? This would lead me to look into the possibilities of manufacturing a couple screens,... if it would contribute to a favorable effect on the cardioid pattern of the mic, for some interesting effect.
It's possible that I think too much. :p

Thanks for the clarity on the above points, and the latency solution.

Rog.

[lpdeluxe]

I don't know: I understand that the different screens affect the frequency response but between you & me I don't believe it'll be a deal breaker. I don't know if they interchange, in other words, but so what? Get something good out of what you've got. But I've seen the 58 (ball) screens for sale separately so they have got to unscrew! It's gotta be easy.

Have a good weekend. My wife's up in your neck of the woods, at the Chatauqua in Western NY State. She gets to go, and I get to stay home.

[vulcan_dc]

hey... the song sounds nice..... good working on the mixing front as well....

cheers,

DC

[Stewbone]

Originally posted by lpdeluxe
I don't know: I understand that the different screens affect the frequency response but between you & me I don't believe it'll be a deal breaker. I don't know if they interchange, in other words, but so what? Get something good out of what you've got. But I've seen the 58 (ball) screens for sale separately so they have got to unscrew! It's gotta be easy.

Have a good weekend. My wife's up in your neck of the woods, at the Chatauqua in Western NY State. She gets to go, and I get to stay home.

Yeah, the 58 does unscrew... be fun to find a busted old 57 just to try the change. Anyway, I agree about the deal-with-it ethic. That's my middle name; Roger "Deal-With-It" Vaughan. Depending on who you talk to, you'll get one of several responses to that... :D

You want to come to New England in the Fall- the weather cools off a bit, and the scenery is great. She's out in the Berkshires area, right? Nice... Shame on my geography!

Rog.

[lpdeluxe]

We're planning a trip in October to Manchester-by-the-Sea, Mass. I've only been in NE once, in 1987, when my late in-laws lived in Cheshire CT. My mother-in-law was from Angola NY, near Lake Erie, and near to Chautauqua. Hopefully I'll get a chance to see more of that part of the world in a couple of months.

Something new next week: I'm hauling my computer, rack, monitors & mics off to Austin to record a CD with my stepson. I think it'll be a real treat.

[Stewbone]

Perfect time for a visit! If it's a good fall, the trees are on fire with color. There's a place near Mystic, CT that sells a hard cider called "Blackout" on Sundays, if you're into the road trip- may be a stretch if you're just here for a bit, though. And if you're no longer under 25...!:p

Now that's a cool sounding venture. Make use of your DAW gear to its' potential. Nice that you guys are on that good foot. I'd like to get mine modularized for travel (my gear- not my kid!): Gigs, friend's rehearsal spaces, etc. where things get loose and the moment gets lively. It becomes an event ("...and so-and-so's bringing the recording rig!"), and you get to catch the fresh energy to, um, disc. I was going to say tape...

It occurs to me once in a while to go with a 'lap-top', but the guy who built my machine tells me they're a bad deal when it comes to service, upgrading, etc. More of a 'consumer' market, and not as easily configurable. Any angle on that?

Rog.

[lpdeluxe]

Yeah, I have a Tascam digital mixer, ART preamp, fiberoptic patchbay & stereo power amp in a rack; a cheapo workstation with a pullout keyboard shelf that has the US428 velcroed to the top and the keyboard & trackball velcroed to the shelf; a reasonably lightweight LCD monitor and assorted video, ADAT and USB cables, and a pair of M-Audio BX8s on stands...and a 12U rack with a headphone amp w 4 headsets, just in case anybody wants to hear what they are playing! I know there are much cooler, more compact, and much more expensive setups out there, but this will fit in my stick-shift Aerostar with room for my Dobro, bass, and mic case. Oh yeah, and the mini-tower computer and a change of clothes.....:D

I think he's probably right about laptops, but if it turned out that I was doing this kind of recording for money I'd figure out a setup to do it with. My wife has a Dell laptop with about the same horsepower as my desktop and the only thing it lacks are the I/O, which could be accommodated with Firewire or USB ports. But G knows I've got more than enough invested in what I've got here.

[Stewbone]

Well, I don't think you're hanging your head there, lp! Sounds like you've got adequate gear for a respectable recording. That's a bit more than my entire arsenal! Of course, I'm just starting out... still, that's a pretty good sounding set-up.

Here's my home scene:

US-428;

Studiomaster "Logic 12" mixer (Studiomaster is gone- I got it on "blowout");

Fostex PMo.5 monitors (cheap, little, good word on 'em);

SM-58, Beta 58, some other Shure 'presentation' mic;

Alesis 3630 compressor,;

Sony boom-box;

Celeron 2.0/512 DDR RAM/DVD&CD-ROM & Burner/17" analog monitor;

CEP 2.0;

old Pioneer cassette deck, for making tapes to listen to in the pickup.

Assorted freeware, a FAsoft compressor;

Found a cool gadget called a "Patch Box"at www.bhphotovideo.com, made by Henry Engineering. Looking into it- gives you 11 stereo outs to whatever exterraneous gear you want to run a mix into- monitors, recorders, etc. Sounds like something utility that might keep coming in handy.

Have a good trip,

Rog.

[lpdeluxe]

Well, I've got WAY too much junk! Including an 8-track player, a 7" reel-to-reel (actually gets used in transferring old tapes into the computer), a Tascam 103 cassette deck (yeah, I bought it just before CDRs got to be popular [and cheap]). Although my wife, who is shall we say not "cutting edge", has one of the last Cherokees sold with a cassette deck: when she finds a CD she likes, she has me dub a tape for her car! Well, I once had a Suburban with an AM/FM/CB/8 Track so I guess I have plenty to answer for myself.

That Henry device looks pretty cool. The biggest headache I've had has been getting everything routed (playback, headphone amp, monitors) and even now I can't play back a CD through my digital mixer/BX8 system without a major repatch.

It looks like you've got a good array of gear. I used an Alesis Studio 12R rackmount mixer for a long time before I found the Tascam. I imagine the Studiomaster is comparable if not superior.

I'd add a condensor or 2 to the mic list, though. Maybe the RODE NT1A, which goes for $200 w shockmount. I have a RODE NT1000 and it's pretty good, but it was $300 + $50 for the shockmount (can't have a cool studio without shockmounts).

I have a pair of VTech dynamics (pitiful), a pair of EV757 dynamics (pretty good), a pair of Shure SM81 small condensors (excellent for acoustic guitar, fiddle, mandolin etc, and the price was right: when a friend retired from the Music dept of the local state college here he GAVE them to me just before he left for France), an AT4041 (very similar to the SM81s), an AT4033 (I had a pair but my stepson loved what they did to his voice so much, that he blackmailed me into selling one to him), and the RODE. Microphones are like tools: buy what you need when you can afford it, then you'll have it the next time.

But it's not about the gear: it's the results you get. It's better to start off small and work your way up than to go blow a bunch of money and expect miracles. A few years ago there was a piece in Sky & Telescope magazine about the breed of amateur astronomers who decide they're going to jump in with both feet and buy a $10000 scope and expect to see the inhabitants of Mars with it...while the old timers, who were polishing mirrors in high school for their homemade lenses, could see much more and understand what they were seeing much better. One step at a time. It's not the Grammy we'll never win, it's the satisfying road we are taking that counts.

[Stewbone]

Yeah,..... you're right. I've been just today salivating over the Event EZ-Bus controller, and kicking myself for not picking that up instead of the Tascam (more I/O, seems like a tighter package)- but I got over it. I'll stop thinking about it when I get my 428 back from the shop (a solder connection to one of the RCA outs came loose). That Patch Box might be nice so I don't have to keep messing with that RCA jack. When everything's working as it should, I don't think about all the neat STUFF I COULD HAVE and just go about making music! No room for being a malcontent- but I've had some down time...

Anyway I'm on the verge of getting something done, now that all the tech stuff is getting cleared up. Still got to get the RAM chip. I have to sell some gear to get the bread for it. Say...

Know anyone who wants a TEAC A-3340s open-reel deck (10"/7" reels)? JBL 2226J 15's (16 ohms)? JBL 2226H 15 (8 ohms)? EAW high-pack wide dispersion 2 x 12's? Crown DC300-A poweramp? American Speaker x-over? Old Craftsman 10" radial-arm saw...?
(I'm for real! :))

Heh, sorry to hear about the Suburban!:D
Actually I learned to play the bass by keeping Led Zeppelin I,II, III, and Best of Jethro Tull M.U. running all day on 8-track when I was at this boarding school. I'd skip math and go bust my chops on "The Lemon Song", or whatever was on. Mostly Zeppelin! Kind of proud to say that John Paul-Jones was my first teacher.

Have a good time in Austin! And thanks for the mic recommendation.

Rog.

[lpdeluxe]

For what it's worth, here's a clip from a project from last year. Me on Dobro, harp & pedal steel, my stepson on guitar, and another guy on bass & guitar.
http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/VirtualStudios/Listen/detail.php?eltid=12795
Here's a full song: me on electric guitars & backup vocal, another guy on bass, keys, vocal. http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/VirtualStudios/Listen/detail.php?eltid=13001

Oh yeah: and Mr Alesis on drums.

[Stewbone]

Can't get in from here at the library!:( I'm picking up a cheapie internet-able tower soon, so this'll change.

Rog.

P.S. I've modified my approach to the "Patch-Box" idea: Rapco will custom-make a routing box (to whatever specs) for a pretty reasonable price (as opposed to the extensive choices/price of the Henry Engineering product). So I've spec'd a 2-in, 6-out little terminal so I can get out from the US-428 to several places without un-plugging and re-plugging the RCA jacks on the 428.

So one set of stereo RCA outs goes to a cassette deck (for the truck!); Another L & R out, 1/4" TS jacks, goes to the Fostex monitors; The last outgoing set of L & R, also 1/4" TS jacks, goes to the Studiomaster mixer, which has additional outs for going on to another tape/cd deck, room monitor for the performer/band, etc. The bear-trap is set.

I got hip to Rapco's custom-bent at the music store I teach at. They evidently build things for the long-haul, heavy steel boxes, quality parts. Just a heads-up for those "special needs".

Rog.